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Old Monday 15th October 2018, 19:15   #1
Roy C
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Looking to upgrade

I am looking to upgrade my 25 year old Alderblick MC 8x 42 bins. Was thinking of going for a IS Bin and maybe 10x.
1) What would you recommanded up to 600-700 mark.
2) What do you think about IS bins (at my age I am not as steady as I once was lol)
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Old Monday 15th October 2018, 19:34   #2
marcsantacurz
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I've not used these, but I researched them for a while. Same problem, my girlfriend has some shakes when using binoculars. So far, we've been able to suitably address it using some 7x bins instead of the 10x that she had been using. She reports much sharper views and she sees more with the 7x than she did with the 10x.

What I understand is the newest generation of Canon IS binoculars is very good, including the 10x32 IS which uses the IS iii system One big advantage of these over the old ones is the IS activation button. On the old ones, you had to keep the button depressed to run the IS. On the new ones, you push it on then it will auto turn off after a bit. You don't need to keep it depressed, which is big for me.

Here's a review of it: https://www.birdguides.com/reviews/b...-iii-binocular

Looking at a .co.uk retailer, they are a bit over your price range, though maybe you could find a used pair?

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Old Monday 15th October 2018, 19:48   #3
Binastro
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If one uses glasses then one would have to see if the Canon IS has enough eye relief.
Also maybe only 3 dioptres adjustment.

My Canon 10x30 IS Mk 2 probably has the best IS of any of the IS that I have used. But they vary.
The Canon 12x36 Mk 3 is of the same era and should be good.

The 32mm Canon IS have not possibly been a good seller because of the much higher price.
I haven't tested any of them, and they may be difficult to buy secondhand.

I would never buy any IS binocular secondhand unless really cheap, so I wouldn't mind the failures such as those of an old (10 plus years in damp conditions?) Canon 10x30 IS Mk 1, which has internal moisture, and a useless Bushnell 10x35, both secondhand mistakes.

An 8x25 IS also has very poor IS although the other two used were very good, except that the optical windows fall out.

The Canon 10x42 L IS can be very good and is waterproof, but is heavy and may be a bit expensive.

I think now the Canon IS have about a two year warranty in the U.K.
But usually if they last a year without a fault, they should hopefully have a good lifetime.

I have used about fourteen various IS binoculars over almost twenty years.

Last edited by Binastro : Monday 15th October 2018 at 20:09.
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Old Tuesday 16th October 2018, 14:13   #4
Roy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcsantacurz View Post
I've not used these, but I researched them for a while. Same problem, my girlfriend has some shakes when using binoculars. So far, we've been able to suitably address it using some 7x bins instead of the 10x that she had been using. She reports much sharper views and she sees more with the 7x than she did with the 10x.

What I understand is the newest generation of Canon IS binoculars is very good, including the 10x32 IS which uses the IS iii system One big advantage of these over the old ones is the IS activation button. On the old ones, you had to keep the button depressed to run the IS. On the new ones, you push it on then it will auto turn off after a bit. You don't need to keep it depressed, which is big for me.

Here's a review of it: https://www.birdguides.com/reviews/b...-iii-binocular


Looking at a .co.uk retailer, they are a bit over your price range, though maybe you could find a used pair?

Marc
Thank you very much Marc, for your experience (via the girlfriend) and the link to the review which I have now read - it seems like the MkIII IS ones are the ones to go for although they are a bit more than I was budgeting for.
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Old Tuesday 16th October 2018, 14:18   #5
Roy C
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Originally Posted by Binastro View Post
If one uses glasses then one would have to see if the Canon IS has enough eye relief.
Also maybe only 3 dioptres adjustment.

My Canon 10x30 IS Mk 2 probably has the best IS of any of the IS that I have used. But they vary.
The Canon 12x36 Mk 3 is of the same era and should be good.

The 32mm Canon IS have not possibly been a good seller because of the much higher price.
I haven't tested any of them, and they may be difficult to buy secondhand.

I would never buy any IS binocular secondhand unless really cheap, so I wouldn't mind the failures such as those of an old (10 plus years in damp conditions?) Canon 10x30 IS Mk 1, which has internal moisture, and a useless Bushnell 10x35, both secondhand mistakes.

An 8x25 IS also has very poor IS although the other two used were very good, except that the optical windows fall out.

The Canon 10x42 L IS can be very good and is waterproof, but is heavy and may be a bit expensive.

I think now the Canon IS have about a two year warranty in the U.K.
But usually if they last a year without a fault, they should hopefully have a good lifetime.

I have used about fourteen various IS binoculars over almost twenty years.
Thank you very much for all the info 'Binastro' I will go through all the bins you have mentioned.
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Old Tuesday 16th October 2018, 14:38   #6
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Hi Roy,
It may be that the frequency of your hand movement is not perfectly suited to the IS set up of an individual binocular.
So one needs to try a binocular and buy the one tested if suitable.

A simple solution may be to get a 6x or 7x standard binocular, even 5x.

Just looked at the details of some Russian IS binoculars.
The 16x50 seems to have an exit pupil of 2.2mm, which seems to confirm that only part of the objectives are used, namely 35mm.
Weight 1.55kg or 1.4Kg. Perhaps there are two versions.
Claimed to be water resistant, then that they can have internal silica packs if specified by buyer.
12mm or something else eye relief.

The 20x50 may weigh 1.62kg.

All seem to be mechanical perhaps with magnets.

The 8x40 EWA and 10x50 EWA standard binoculars are advertised as of high optical quality including edge of field.
Mine are poor mechanically and not great optically.
They are advertised as operating from -300C to +450C. That is impressive. I know that it is cold in Russia, but below absolute zero?

The 2.3x40 are advertised as 'Wide angle permits people with depraved vision to watch TV'. Hopefully not before 9pm.

Mind you my Russian isn't up to much, so I shouldn't mind strange English.

A Russian speaker tells me that some of the instruction leaflets with some 'Russian binoculars' are actually Ukrainian, so I am not sure which binoculars are made where.
Some used to be made in Leningrad, St Petersburg and some in Kazan. But I don't know if some were or are Ukrainian.
Some are also made in Belarus I think.

Last edited by Binastro : Tuesday 16th October 2018 at 14:57.
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Old Tuesday 16th October 2018, 16:32   #7
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Can I throw in my tuppence worth.

I replied to Marc 7x thread in reply #24. For convenience I have copied it here:

"Marc,

You were quite specific in your original post that your girlfriend has hand tremor and you were looking for a 7x binocular to try to overcome that problem.

I have been in exactly the same position as your girlfriend and have overcome the problem in a different way.

I used to use a Nikon 10x42 SE but had to reduce the magnification to an 8x32 SE due to temor. This worked for a while but the inability to achieve a sharp image and the eyestrain involved became too much and I was on the point of giving up using binoculars. However, before I did, I posted on the Forum and ask if anybody had any suggestions for overcoming the problem. I was pointed in the direction of 7x and also the use of the finstick support which I tried and even bought a Nikon 7x42 EDG, but that didn't significantly improve the situation.

By chance, I was looking at a secondhand mint Canon 10x30 IS on the famous website and took the plunge. At 200 ($250) it wasn't too much to loose if it didn't solve the problem.

The first time I looked through them and then pressed the image stabilisation button was a revelation. The shaking ceased and the image became rock solid - I could see more detail than looking through any of my top class binoculars. I still have them and the view is so addictive that I now have other magnifications as well and only have Canon IS binoculars now. My wife has a Pentax 6.5x21, that she uses for bugs and flowers which I can use if I need close focus.

I hope that your girlfriend can try a Canon as it might be the answer to her problem.

Regards

Stan"

I'm not such a long term user as Binastro, only 5 years, but in that time I have built up the full set of Canon's - 7 of the last models, not the x32's. Of these 5 are second hand, but unlike Binastro, none have given me any trouble. So I would buy second hand, providing they were in mint condition.

Marc suggests that he would not buy an earlier model because of having to hold the stabilization button. Here I must disagree with him as I find it very easy to do and not a problem. Index finger on the focus wheel and middle finger on the button which I find so convenient, it's possible to hold and operate with one hand.

I took a chance when I bought my first 10x30 having never seen or used one, but as I suggested above, it was a last resort situation. However, do try one before you give up on ordinary bino's - you might not need IS. I've being trying to find some way of assessing tremor but have not been successful so far. However, I do know that if I hold my hand flat out, palm down and close to my body with the fingers together, I have very negligible tremor. However, if I stretch my arm out and open my fingers there is then significant hand tremor. This may be just the hand but possibly arm tremor as well. Go on, have a go and see what happens! (I wonder how many other people are doing it right now?)

When or if you do get to try out any Canons don't be too quick to dismiss them as they are very different from ordinary binos and take some getting used to. In my case the effort was very worthwhile as I now find them as comfortable to use as any other bino. Oh, and a better view.

I wish that that you had posted a month ago as I was in Cheddar on holiday and we could have met somewhere for you to try some out. Unfortunately, it will be December before I go again.

Stan
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Old Tuesday 16th October 2018, 17:00   #8
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Last Christmas season Canon had a number of specials on the 10x42L IS, some under $1000. Heavy, and less than ideal FOV, but stellar optics.
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Old Wednesday 17th October 2018, 08:19   #9
Roy C
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Thank you very much for all the replies guys. Over the past 10 years or so I have been mainly photographing birds and currently have several Canon 'L' class IS lenses so know just how good the stabilisation is but I was unsure how good it was on Binoculars - seems like it works very well from the feedback I am getting.
At the moment the Canon 10 x 42 L IS WP is the favourite for me, at 1100g it is lighter than anything I am used to with Camera and lens (and cheaper!!).
How come there is not a 8x42 IS bin?
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Old Wednesday 17th October 2018, 09:43   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy C View Post
Thank you very much for all the replies guys. Over the past 10 years or so I have been mainly photographing birds and currently have several Canon 'L' class IS lenses so know just how good the stabilisation is but I was unsure how good it was on Binoculars - seems like it works very well from the feedback I am getting.
At the moment the Canon 10 x 42 L IS WP is the favourite for me, at 1100g it is lighter than anything I am used to with Camera and lens (and cheaper!!).
How come there is not a 8x42 IS bin?
Probably because the average person can hold 8x steady enough without IS help.

Lee
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Old Wednesday 17th October 2018, 11:36   #11
Roy C
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Probably because the average person can hold 8x steady enough without IS help.

Lee
I understand that Lee but they do a 8 x25 IS
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Old Wednesday 17th October 2018, 12:32   #12
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I understand that Lee but they do a 8 x25 IS
OK, I stand corrected Roy. Perhaps the 8x25 doesn't sell as well as other magnifications, but on the other hand 8x42 is such a popular format, so your question still hangs in the air....

Lee
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Old Wednesday 17th October 2018, 15:04   #13
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Usually IS binoculars have small exit pupils.

With the electronic stabilised IS monoculars there is a limit of about 25mm to 30mm aperture.
With other systems there are binoculars and monoculars up to 60mm aperture.

The 4.2mm exit pupil of the Canon 10x42 L IS is unusually large.
Some are only about 2.0mm.

The Canon 8x25 IS have had two quite different operating systems.
Presently I think lens movement. This may be limited to about a 25mm binocular.

I cannot remember what stabiliser system is used with the new Canon 32mm binoculars, maybe again limited by aperture.

I suppose Canon could make an 8x42 IS if they wanted to.

Last edited by Binastro : Wednesday 17th October 2018 at 16:05.
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Old Thursday 18th October 2018, 09:04   #14
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Usually IS binoculars have small exit pupils.

With the electronic stabilised IS monoculars there is a limit of about 25mm to 30mm aperture.
Hi,

this is true. At least the Canon IS bins work by having glass moved by piezo actuators (not whole prisms but two optical flats with a liquid of comparable refractive index in between - forming a prism of variable geometry).

For larger exit pupils, you need larger prisms, thus the optical flats get heavier and you need stronger actuators with stronger driver circuits and better batteries...

In the situation of the o.p. I would really look into the 10x Canon offerings - a used 10x30 mk2 or 3 will be fine as will be the new 10x32. Or even the 10x42 for the most rugged and optically best pair... I don't think the competition currently has IS offerings suitable for birding - the Fujinon/Nikon system is far less stable hand-held wile standing - it's design goal is to be as good as possible on a moving car/boat/helicopter. Also the optics of two pairs I have tried were not quite comparable with the Canons. Zeiss 20x60 is nice glass but reall huge and heavy - I know a lady which uses these for birding occasionally - I admire her stamina.
Haven't tried the russians - not much info out there but they're too expensive to just buy one to try...

Joachim

Last edited by jring : Thursday 18th October 2018 at 09:12. Reason: expanded
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Old Friday 19th October 2018, 10:50   #15
Roy C
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Thank you very much for all the feedback folk. I have now read a lot of reviews and comments on the 10x42 L IS WP bins and all seem to indicate that the optical image is superb once the IS is switched on. The cons seems to be with the Mechanics. There is no chance of me trying them locally so I may just take a chance on them. Are there any cons that I should really be concerned with? thanks again guys.
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Old Friday 19th October 2018, 14:04   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy C View Post
Thank you very much for all the feedback folk. I have now read a lot of reviews and comments on the 10x42 L IS WP bins and all seem to indicate that the optical image is superb once the IS is switched on. The cons seems to be with the Mechanics. There is no chance of me trying them locally so I may just take a chance on them. Are there any cons that I should really be concerned with? thanks again guys.
The 10x42 Canon is actually pretty solid, at least in my experience. Mine has been knocked around pretty well and always came up smiling.
Main issue is to feed it decent batteries. The lithium batteries are probably the best, as they are somewhat less temperature sensitive and they don't leak as they get older, unlike the alkalines. Of course they cost more, but they last longer as well.
The rechargeable NiMH batteries don't leak either, at least afaik, but they deliver somewhat lower voltage, which may be stressful for the IS system. Canon has not made any recommendations either way though.

Separately, the 10x42 objective glass is actually a flat that seals the housing, the real lenses are set inside this envelope. Sun shades such as this make the glass a little more handy and help with glare, which however is already pretty well controlled. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Old Friday 19th October 2018, 17:11   #17
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Years ago I had a 7x42 Alderblick and I was very fond of it for astronomy. I did eventually switch to IS for astronomy because I found that higher magnification and stabilization more than compensated for smaller exit pupil and even in some instances smaller aperture. Increasing magnification (at a given objective size) darkens the sky background and makes fainter stars more discernible. The figure of merit due to Adler, magnification*aperture^1/2, seems about right to me.

In side by side comparisons using tripods (no IS), I found that the Canon 10x30 could see as deep as the Fujinon 7x50, and that the Canon 15x45 could see considerably deeper than the Fujinon 7x50. Hand held without IS and using no support of any kind, I preferred 7x50. Of course the beauty of IS is that you need no tripod and have all the mobility of hand held binoculars and almost as much stability. Of course, generally lower magnification provides greater field of view. IS binoculars tend to be heavier and bulkier than their aperture would indicate and I find them marginally harder to point than similar aperture Porro of Roof binoculars. Also, the Canon optics were surprisingly good with flatter fields than any of my quality Porro binoculars.

My experience with Canon is good. I have a 15x45 that is 20 years old and still going strong. However, should there be a mechanical/electronic problem I assume my 15x45 is essentially unrepairable at any reasonable price. I have heard that even newer models, once out of warranty are difficult to get fixed.

Alan
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