Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Common Redstart age?

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Monday 9th September 2019, 11:53   #1
KenM
Registered User
 
KenM's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 11,361
Common Redstart age?

Shot last week in N.London, am thinking a 2nd calendar year male?

cheers
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	P2030839.jpeg     Grdn.Credstrt.01.jpeg
Views:	106
Size:	72.4 KB
ID:	704349  Click image for larger version

Name:	P2030835.jpeg   Grdn.Crdstrt.02.jpeg
Views:	94
Size:	100.1 KB
ID:	704350  Click image for larger version

Name:	P2020703.jpeg    Grdn.Crdstrt.04.jpeg
Views:	143
Size:	182.9 KB
ID:	704351  Click image for larger version

Name:	P2020689.jpeg     Grdn.Crdstrt.03.jpeg
Views:	83
Size:	65.8 KB
ID:	704352  
KenM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 9th September 2019, 12:47   #2
Jean FRANCOIS
Registered User
 
Jean FRANCOIS's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Nancy-France
Posts: 598
I have the impression that there are two different birds.
In the first photo, the color of the throat and the speckled appearance of the chest indicate to me a young female.
For the next ones, I think of an adult female (new plumage, uniform GC)
Jean
Jean FRANCOIS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 9th September 2019, 13:47   #3
KenM
Registered User
 
KenM's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 11,361
There appeared to be just a single bird present, no suggestions of a second bird were evident. Adult females and hatch year birds as far as I’m aware are brown to the upper-parts, hence my question regarding a 2nd calendar year male?

Cheers
KenM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 9th September 2019, 14:01   #4
Grahame Walbridge
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Portland
Posts: 2,396
Ken, ageing autumn females in the hand is extremely difficult and requires practice/experience so I would strongly advise against attempting to age a bird from what are, at best, rather poor record shots. You cannot age 2cy birds in autumn.

Grahame

Last edited by Grahame Walbridge : Monday 9th September 2019 at 14:05.
Grahame Walbridge is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 9th September 2019, 14:26   #5
KenM
Registered User
 
KenM's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 11,361
Grahame, are you saying that female sub-adult Common Redstarts can look this grey to the upper-parts, as my understanding is that guide books have always suggested that immature and adult females are of a brown persuasion, certainly in the field all the adult females that I’ve seen have been so. However my experience of immature Autumn birds is limited.

Here's a better image showing the grey upperparts.

Cheers
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	P2020694.jpeg  Imm.Rdstrt.1..jpg
Views:	46
Size:	127.9 KB
ID:	704368  

Last edited by KenM : Monday 9th September 2019 at 14:53. Reason: adding image
KenM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 9th September 2019, 15:20   #6
Grahame Walbridge
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Portland
Posts: 2,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenM View Post
Grahame, are you saying that female sub-adult Common Redstarts can look this grey to the upper-parts, as my understanding is that guide books have always suggested that immature and adult females are of a brown persuasion, certainly in the field all the adult females that I’ve seen have been so. However my experience of immature Autumn birds is limited.

Here's a better image showing the grey upperparts.

Cheers
When did I mention the upper parts?

Autumn ageing is by the shape of the rectrices and moult limit in the GC's which, particularly in females, can be very subtle. The newly moulted inners (adult) have slightly darker and greyer centres and fringes which contrast with the outer (worn juvenile) feathers with have broader, buffish fringes.

Suggest you look at this http://ringersdigiguide.ottenby.se/s...icurus/autumn/

Grahame

Last edited by Grahame Walbridge : Monday 9th September 2019 at 15:32.
Grahame Walbridge is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 9th September 2019, 15:51   #7
KenM
Registered User
 
KenM's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 11,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grahame Walbridge View Post
When did I mention the upper parts?

Autumn ageing is by the shape of the rectrices and moult limit in the GC's which, particularly in females, can be very subtle. The newly moulted inners (adult) have slightly darker and greyer centres and fringes which contrast with the outer (worn juvenile) feathers with have broader, buffish fringes.

Suggest you look at this http://ringersdigiguide.ottenby.se/s...icurus/autumn/

Grahame
Thanks for that Grahame I've got to dash now, when I get back I'll immerse myself in the Coverts, in the meantime here's another shot!

Cheers
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	P2020706.jpeg    Com..Redstrt. Beryl's grdn.2..jpeg
Views:	72
Size:	120.8 KB
ID:	704370  
KenM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 9th September 2019, 16:53   #8
Jane Turner
Registered User
 
Jane Turner's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hoylake, Merseyside
Posts: 22,937
Pretty sure I can see a moult contrast in the greater coverts which would make it a 1st year bird.

And because its possible to see a contrast, its likely that its a 1st cal year male. Hint of a 5 o clock shadow on the throat of that last photo which would support that.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	redstart.png
Views:	65
Size:	234.5 KB
ID:	704380  
__________________

Last Cheshire Pied Wheatear (313) last Red Rocks Subalpine Warbler (260), last Garden Bonaparte's Gull (209), last Self-found Citrine Wagtail (294)

Last edited by Jane Turner : Monday 9th September 2019 at 17:03.
Jane Turner is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 9th September 2019, 17:54   #9
Grahame Walbridge
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Portland
Posts: 2,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane Turner View Post
Pretty sure I can see a moult contrast in the greater coverts which would make it a 1st year bird.

And because its possible to see a contrast, its likely that its a 1st cal year male. Hint of a 5 o clock shadow on the throat of that last photo which would support that.
Jane you begin the process with sexing and I see no feature that supports it being a male http://ringersdigiguide.ottenby.se/s...icurus/sexing/

So female it is IMHO of uncertain age.

Grahame
Grahame Walbridge is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 9th September 2019, 19:35   #10
KenM
Registered User
 
KenM's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 11,361
Having trawled the web for comparable images (not many) and skimming through your link (for the time being), I can see where you're coming from Grahame, it would certainly appear to be a bit of a minefield regarding ageing between post juv.moult and female maturity.

I suppose, only ever seeing sub-adult males 2nd calendar year (April) on Cyprus with any regularity, mostly with varying degrees of brown mantle and wings looking quite distinctly different from the grey backed adults, and at the expense of not noting any female types.

Many thanks for the link.
KenM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 9th September 2019, 23:58   #11
johnallcock
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,231
I'm not particularly familiar with Common Redstart, but I thought males and females were easily separable even in the first calendar year (ie post-juvenile moult). Shouldn't a male look more like this? http://www.oiseaux.net/photos/aureli...edstart.6.html

A second CY bird in September (ie more than 1 year old) should surely have completed a moult cycle and be indistinguishable from an adult male. This may not apply to any 2nd CY birds you have seen in April (when they are still less than a year old, and may still retain some juvenile feathers).

So, for me this is surely a female, and as Grahame says ageing it could be extremely difficult.
johnallcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 10th September 2019, 06:09   #12
rollingthunder
Registered User
 
rollingthunder's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: stourbridge west midlands
Posts: 4,176
I cannot contribute to the ageing process, apart from feeling the strain myself at times, but do these sub-Saharan birds bother much with returning in immature plumage if they are unlikely to breed?

Laurie
__________________
Chance favours the prepared mind
rollingthunder is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 10th September 2019, 07:24   #13
KenM
Registered User
 
KenM's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 11,361
Probably about ten years ago now, I stumbled into a family group of Redstarts in Shropshire circa June/July period, where the young were low down in the ferns and the (Brown) adult female was feeding them (couldn’t see the young).

Eventually she flew off and was soon replaced by another bird that was featureless apart from a concolourous grey crown and back, and of course requisite quivering red tail, thus leaving me somewhat confused.

I don’t believe they’re double brooded, thus it must have been a 2nd calendar year bird, perhaps from the previous year, as for the sex I presumed male....dunno.
KenM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 10th September 2019, 07:47   #14
rollingthunder
Registered User
 
rollingthunder's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: stourbridge west midlands
Posts: 4,176
You have to ask yourself - how many birders are there in the Wintering grounds during our Summer looking for them.....

Laurie
__________________
Chance favours the prepared mind
rollingthunder is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 10th September 2019, 10:31   #15
Grahame Walbridge
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Portland
Posts: 2,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollingthunder View Post
I cannot contribute to the ageing process, apart from feeling the strain myself at times, but do these sub-Saharan birds bother much with returning in immature plumage if they are unlikely to breed?

Laurie
Why are they unlikely to breed Laurie? 2cy birds return in spring in good numbers, same rules apply as autumn in that males are readily identifiable whereas females are much trickier to age and require close scrutiny in the hand. Further, 2cy birds have more worn (browner) primaries, secondaries and tail feathers which, in males, can be quite obvious in the field. In adults these tracts are relatively fresh.

See http://ringersdigiguide.ottenby.se/s...icurus/spring/

Grahame
Grahame Walbridge is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 10th September 2019, 12:12   #16
rollingthunder
Registered User
 
rollingthunder's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: stourbridge west midlands
Posts: 4,176
I don’t know Graham but i am ‘assuming’ that birds have a nuptial plumage for a reason - to be accepted as a suitable mate. With species that show a strong colour dimorphism e.g. Redstart i am assuming that altho birds are probably physically capable of reproduction they are less likely to be acceptable to a female because they look ‘dodgy’.

I am no expert and i appreciate advice from birders like you who are

I am thinking out aloud here - why have the adult plumage in these species if it is not for bragging rights with the girls and if so why bother making the not considerable effort of trans-Saharan migration in order to be jealous at the orgy?

Then i think about the Phylloscopus and strongly dimorphic Sylvias’ and where does Garden Warbler fit in

I would appreciate any input as i find all this stuff interesting and makes a change from primary projection and emarginations

Good Birding -

Laurie -
__________________
Chance favours the prepared mind
rollingthunder is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 10th September 2019, 15:37   #17
KenM
Registered User
 
KenM's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 11,361
Some interesting points raised there Laurie. If I may use e.g. Peregrines, where one of a pair disappears at a well watched territory, and it’s place is filled by a sub-adult bird that becomes available from the “unpaired” pool of non breeders. Might there be a “new partner”mechanism within the species for this type of emergency, and if so might it also be a “function” possibility for other species, as we do know that with certain species, first brood offspring might help with the rearing of the second?....dunno.

Last edited by KenM : Tuesday 10th September 2019 at 15:38. Reason: edit
KenM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 10th September 2019, 21:16   #18
Jane Turner
Registered User
 
Jane Turner's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hoylake, Merseyside
Posts: 22,937
I can still see quite a distinct moult boundary in the greater coverts [looks like 6 ogc's on both wings] - in both the length and the edges/tips. Its a long time since I handled a Redstart, but it always took a lot of effort and getting the light just right to see it in the hand on females.
__________________

Last Cheshire Pied Wheatear (313) last Red Rocks Subalpine Warbler (260), last Garden Bonaparte's Gull (209), last Self-found Citrine Wagtail (294)

Last edited by Jane Turner : Wednesday 11th September 2019 at 17:38.
Jane Turner is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Wednesday 11th September 2019, 01:43   #19
johnallcock
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,231
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollingthunder View Post
I don’t know Graham but i am ‘assuming’ that birds have a nuptial plumage for a reason - to be accepted as a suitable mate. With species that show a strong colour dimorphism e.g. Redstart i am assuming that altho birds are probably physically capable of reproduction they are less likely to be acceptable to a female because they look ‘dodgy’.

I am no expert and i appreciate advice from birders like you who are

I am thinking out aloud here - why have the adult plumage in these species if it is not for bragging rights with the girls and if so why bother making the not considerable effort of trans-Saharan migration in order to be jealous at the orgy?

Then i think about the Phylloscopus and strongly dimorphic Sylvias’ and where does Garden Warbler fit in

I would appreciate any input as i find all this stuff interesting and makes a change from primary projection and emarginations

Good Birding -

Laurie -
Just to come back to my earlier point, do Common Redstart males have an 'adult' plumage? Or do adults and first year birds look essentially the same, apart from the wear of the retained flight feathers and coverts? If they are similar, then there is no apparent reason that they would not breed at one year old.

I am more familiar with Daurian Redstart, in which the males have a post-juvenile body moult to adult plumage before the first migration, and are best aged according to retained coverts and flight feathers. (Females are extremely difficult to age, based largely on tail shape because moult contrast is very hard to see). Grahame's comments and links suggest that the same moult pattern applies for Common Redstart.

If Common Redstart also has this moult sequence, then a 2CY male in September should have a clearly grey back, black throat and rufous underparts. Even a first CY male would have similar pattern, but more obscured by brown fringes. The subject bird doesn't have anything resembling this pattern, so should surely be a female. In which case, ageing becomes more difficult.
johnallcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 11th September 2019, 06:30   #20
rollingthunder
Registered User
 
rollingthunder's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: stourbridge west midlands
Posts: 4,176
Thank you John - all very interesting stuff mate

Laurie -
__________________
Chance favours the prepared mind
rollingthunder is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 11th September 2019, 07:08   #21
KenM
Registered User
 
KenM's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 11,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane Turner View Post
I can still see quite a distinct moult boundary in the greater coverts [looks like 6 ogc's on both wings] - in both the length and the edges/tips. Its a long time since I handled a Redstart, but it always took a lot of effort and getting the light just right to see it in the hand.
Yes thanks Jane my understanding of moult strategies are a bit vague, “ogc’s” something greater coverts?

Cheers
KenM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 11th September 2019, 08:11   #22
Brian J Small
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Suffolk, UK
Posts: 1,047
2 photos from Tarsiger of an autumn 'juvenile/1cy' female (though aged in hand and prob indistinguishable from 2cy/ad female in field):-
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa...RonskiPaP1.JPG
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa...RonskiPaP3.JPG

This one is labelled as a 1cy female, but is a 1cy male in Sept
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/aksu/...Picture630.jpg

...as is this one
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/masa/Phopho07.jpg

This is an adult/2cy male in Sept - note black lores:-
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/aksu/...Picture624.jpg

Brian
Brian J Small is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 11th September 2019, 10:20   #23
KenM
Registered User
 
KenM's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 11,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian J Small View Post
2 photos from Tarsiger of an autumn 'juvenile/1cy' female (though aged in hand and prob indistinguishable from 2cy/ad female in field):-
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa...RonskiPaP1.JPG
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa...RonskiPaP3.JPG

This one is labelled as a 1cy female, but is a 1cy male in Sept
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/aksu/...Picture630.jpg

...as is this one
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/masa/Phopho07.jpg

This is an adult/2cy male in Sept - note black lores:-
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/aksu/...Picture624.jpg

Brian
Interesting Brian!....What’s your opinion of the subject bird?

Cheers
KenM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 11th September 2019, 15:34   #24
Jane Turner
Registered User
 
Jane Turner's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hoylake, Merseyside
Posts: 22,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenM View Post
Yes thanks Jane my understanding of moult strategies are a bit vague, “ogc’s” something greater coverts?

Cheers
Sorry old greater [unmoulted and hence still juvenile-type] greater coverts



I've been looking at online photos of female Redstarts and it really is eye of faith stuff to pick it up on photos - and its length more than a difference in the tone. Males on the other hand are usually realtively easy to age - though this one is labelled in HBW as a 1st w male

https://www.hbw.com/ibc/photo/common...st-winter-male doesn't have " between the eyes" ogcs, though the angle doesn't help.

But this one https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail...aphy/523646012


is more obvious 1st year male.

This looks to be a male too (2 grey inner GCs)
https://a4.pbase.com/o6/60/469160/1/...Codirosso3.jpg
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	redstart.png
Views:	19
Size:	51.7 KB
ID:	704619  
__________________

Last Cheshire Pied Wheatear (313) last Red Rocks Subalpine Warbler (260), last Garden Bonaparte's Gull (209), last Self-found Citrine Wagtail (294)

Last edited by Jane Turner : Thursday 12th September 2019 at 08:59.
Jane Turner is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Wednesday 11th September 2019, 22:49   #25
KenM
Registered User
 
KenM's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 11,361
Thanks for that Jane! In all honesty I’m still a little confused to the point of wondering if “Transgender” is a possibility, and if so, is there a ratio of aged ID’s as opposed to non?

Interesting that Brian appears to have declined an opinion and that yourself and Grahame have, clearly there is a possible conflict of confidence not just on specifically ageing post Juv. moulting females but even separating the genders of this species between 1st and 2nd calendar years?

In the light of comments from yourselves, I’m still having problems reconciling some of these images to gender specific, all I can say is that the subject bird was overwhelmingly “Ash grey” to the uppers with very little brown tint observed.

Thanks for all your respective deliberations on this bird, it’s a shame that being shot in such close proximity just (5’ from the window), that a positive gender and ageing ID was not possible in this instance.

Many thanks
KenM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Black Redstart, Common Redstart or Dunnock? Slovenia, August 2015 BrockwellBee Bird Identification Q&A 9 Monday 30th November 2015 13:04
Common Redstart or Black Redstart jbpixels Bird Identification Q&A 5 Thursday 12th September 2013 17:38
Black Redstart or Common Redstart? Iran, Kookherd ghaffar Bird Identification Q&A 3 Sunday 10th February 2013 10:56
Presumed male Black Redstart and Common Redstart hybrid in Spain BobTag Bird Identification Q&A 19 Wednesday 6th February 2008 14:51
Probable hybrid Black Redstart X Common Redstart, ochruros X phoenicurus hannu Bird Identification Q&A 25 Wednesday 30th March 2005 08:10



Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.16767097 seconds with 40 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 04:36.