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New Product Introduction Today From Swarovski ?

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Old Thursday 9th July 2020, 02:43   #651
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A bit off topic, but how can post #580 be a reply to #581?
Anti-causality? Now you have the proof that the author of #581 is from another planet/universe.
Lol ...... damn temporal mechanics !





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Old Thursday 9th July 2020, 03:19   #652
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The NL series is quite exciting. I will wait to judge when I can handle them or at least see some independent reviews from several sources.

The shape looks quite efficient and inviting. Here is a nice online video teaser that shows the binocular/hand interface:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vy6CDFaVjM&t=2s

I love the good eye relief (18mm) combined with the large AFOV (69, 70 and 71 degrees). I have long considered 70 deg AFOV to be the ideal design goal in an alpha. There is great visual appeal at that AFOV in my experience and any more than 70 degrees requires such extreme optical design measures as to be impractical.

It remains to be seen what the distortion mapping is on the different NL binoculars. The published AFOV values would lead me to suspect that the 8X42 NL would have a nice balance of slight pincushion and no rolling ball effects while the 10X and 12X NL will probably have noticeable rolling ball or disturbing mustache distortion effects at the outer parts of the field of view to those of us that are sensitive to such. Hands on testing is needed.

The head rest is a welcome reincarnation of the ROSS Spectraross 8X40 from 70 years ago as Gary mentioned in post #115. This should be most effective at stabilizing the view for eyeglass wearers like myself. Non-eyeglass wearers can push the eyecups against the face and gain better stabilization than eyeglass wearers can. The new headrest should be a nice feature.

I am worried about the initial description by the Swarovski sales folk and their surrogates that the edges of the field seem to “disappear”. This sounds like the field stops will not be visible without purposeful repositioning of the eyeball to the eyepiece. This would be a real disappointment as I expect to see a sharp round field stop with totally dark surround on an alpha level binocular. It sounds like Swarovski may be anticipating some negative feedback on this and is using reverse psychology to make a design deficiency into a positive feature. Hands on testing is needed. Maybe it is a feature and the result will be stunning, I will keep an open mind (and open eyes).

So I look forward to Jan’s hands on review as well as others to come. And please, Jan start a new thread for actual hands on reviews of the NL.

Stephanie
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Old Thursday 9th July 2020, 05:50   #653
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Jan,

You were probably the only one.
No, actually Swaro's competition asked/told me.
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Old Thursday 9th July 2020, 05:54   #654
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Optical box? Is that what the CLs are shipped in?

Ed
Hi Ed,

Don't ask me how it works but the view through the CL30 is without blackouts no matter the position of the eye cups, at least for me.

Jan
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Old Thursday 9th July 2020, 06:16   #655
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Originally Posted by elkcub View Post
Optical box? Is that what the CLs are shipped in?

Ed
Ed you said you are a serious guy and then you hit us with this! I like it!

Lee
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Old Thursday 9th July 2020, 06:21   #656
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Hi Ed,

Don't ask me how it works but the view through the CL30 is without blackouts no matter the position of the eye cups, at least for me.

Jan
Isn't it the same optics as in a rifle scope where you need the super-long eye relief/optical box to avoid getting poked in the eye due to the recoil?

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Old Thursday 9th July 2020, 10:42   #657
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Hello John,

My recollection is that the Zeiss FL models created quite a stir.

Stay safe,
Arthur
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Old Thursday 9th July 2020, 11:52   #658
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Isn't it the same optics as in a rifle scope where you need the super-long eye relief/optical box to avoid getting poked in the eye due to the recoil?

Lee
Hi Lee,

If memory serves me well, it isn't possible to get the eye lens of the riflescope close to the eye without experiencing blackouts, something that doesn't occur with the CL30.

Since you brought it up, the word "poking" brings me sweet memories

Jan
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Old Thursday 9th July 2020, 17:19   #659
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I am worried about the initial description by the Swarovski sales folk and their surrogates that the edges of the field seem to “disappear”. This sounds like the field stops will not be visible without purposeful repositioning of the eyeball to the eyepiece. This would be a real disappointment as I expect to see a sharp round field stop with totally dark surround on an alpha level binocular.

Stephanie
Hi Stephanie - it may be that binoculars with extra wide fields of view move the field stop out to where it is much less noticeable. I just commandeered my brother's 10x50 WX, the alpha of alphas (at least optically) to double-check my impressions of it, and the field stop of this binocular is, as I remembered, so far out from the center that it certainly does not appear, at least to my eyes, as a "sharp round field stop with totally dark surround". The old Swift 7x35 extra wide angle porro I have also has a similar effect, albeit less pronounced. I haven't looked through the NL yet, nor probably will for some considerable time - but I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar in such a wide-field binocular.

Incidentally, I like being able to put the field stop a long way out, as the impression becomes more like looking out of a window than through a tube - I always try to position the binoculars so that the field stop is as far out as possible, right up until blackouts start to happen, then dial it back just slightly. Binoculars with large exit pupils seem to be particularly good at achieving this happy state, but I can accomplish this with some other binoculars as well. My two classic 8x30 porros (Zeiss West and Leitz Binuxit) are very very close optically, but I prefer the latter just a little more as I can get its field stop a little further out and I feel I am seeing just that little more.

I realize field of view isn't the be-all and end-all, and I agree a sharp, clean field stop (Leitz/Leica seem to be really good at this) looks neat and professional - but I would much rather sacrifice the second for more of the first, especially when it's sharp to the edge. "Your mileage may vary", of course...

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Old Friday 10th July 2020, 05:34   #660
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Originally Posted by jan van daalen View Post
Hi Lee,

If memory serves me well, it isn't possible to get the eye lens of the riflescope close to the eye without experiencing blackouts, something that doesn't occur with the CL30.

Since you brought it up, the word "poking" brings me sweet memories

Jan
Correct. There is a very small window where the light converges and gives a full image. Too close and your image goes to hell, and too far away gives you a tiny circle of light and a reflection on the scopes reticle extending beyond it, distorting badly if viewed slightly off-axis.

Most are 3.5" ER, and with a variable power scope most company lies stay pretty close to that mark, else various drawbacks.

Scout scopes are the exception where long eye relief is desirable, but those are typically fixed power optics, for optical-mechanical and practical (reaching way up to adjust is lame) reasons.

Last edited by Whiterain : Friday 10th July 2020 at 05:37.
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Old Saturday 11th July 2020, 18:15   #661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaVista View Post
The NL series is quite exciting. I will wait to judge when I can handle them or at least see some independent reviews from several sources.

The shape looks quite efficient and inviting. Here is a nice online video teaser that shows the binocular/hand interface:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vy6CDFaVjM&t=2s

I love the good eye relief (18mm) combined with the large AFOV (69, 70 and 71 degrees). I have long considered 70 deg AFOV to be the ideal design goal in an alpha. There is great visual appeal at that AFOV in my experience and any more than 70 degrees requires such extreme optical design measures as to be impractical.

It remains to be seen what the distortion mapping is on the different NL binoculars. The published AFOV values would lead me to suspect that the 8X42 NL would have a nice balance of slight pincushion and no rolling ball effects while the 10X and 12X NL will probably have noticeable rolling ball or disturbing mustache distortion effects at the outer parts of the field of view to those of us that are sensitive to such. Hands on testing is needed.

The head rest is a welcome reincarnation of the ROSS Spectraross 8X40 from 70 years ago as Gary mentioned in post #115. This should be most effective at stabilizing the view for eyeglass wearers like myself. Non-eyeglass wearers can push the eyecups against the face and gain better stabilization than eyeglass wearers can. The new headrest should be a nice feature.

I am worried about the initial description by the Swarovski sales folk and their surrogates that the edges of the field seem to “disappear”. This sounds like the field stops will not be visible without purposeful repositioning of the eyeball to the eyepiece. This would be a real disappointment as I expect to see a sharp round field stop with totally dark surround on an alpha level binocular. It sounds like Swarovski may be anticipating some negative feedback on this and is using reverse psychology to make a design deficiency into a positive feature. Hands on testing is needed. Maybe it is a feature and the result will be stunning, I will keep an open mind (and open eyes).

So I look forward to Jan’s hands on review as well as others to come. And please, Jan start a new thread for actual hands on reviews of the NL.

Stephanie

I think they are trying to say the AFOV is so wide you don't notice the field stop. If you look through super wide telescope eyepieces, like 90-110° AFOV, you have to move your eye just to see the field stop. I think they are saying it is much like that experience. I'm sure the field stop will be sharp. Wide AFOV optics are so much more immersive than soda straw optics.
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Old Saturday 11th July 2020, 20:27   #662
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For me the discussion about the field stop looks as kind of a linguistic problem here perhaps. I understand from it: can you see the rim of the image circle? Of course you can and I could see that but, as Jan already wrote, outside the image circle there is darkness-nothing-no image.
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Old Sunday 12th July 2020, 08:21   #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jan van daalen View Post
Hi Ed,

Don't ask me how it works but the view through the CL30 is without blackouts no matter the position of the eye cups, at least for me.

Jan
Jan,

Hmmm. I think the way it works must be that the CL30 has very good control of spherical aberration at the exit pupil, which is definitely not a strong point for the Swaro 8x30 WB. If fact, quite to the contrary, it's a definite problem.

Ed
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Old Sunday 12th July 2020, 12:21   #664
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Originally Posted by elkcub View Post
Optical box? Is that what the CLs are shipped in?

Ed
Hi Ed,

The eyepieces of my CL Companion 8x30B come with an "optical box" in their construction.

I understand that they are supposed to work like a rifle scope works. One can move one's head forward or backward and still see the full view without getting black outs.

It works for me. I can place the eye cups back into my eye sockets or, alternatively, brace them up against and slightly under my brow ridge and still use the binocular without getting black outs.

I suppose, if the new Swarovski NA has eye pieces with this so called "optical box," one could also use the optional head brace to help steady the binocular.

Of course, one can also purchase a Canon Image Stabilized 12x36 for much less money!

Bob
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Old Sunday 12th July 2020, 14:46   #665
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Question

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Originally Posted by AltaVista View Post
.....I am worried about the initial description by the Swarovski sales folk and their surrogates that the edges of the field seem to “disappear”. This sounds like the field stops will not be visible without purposeful repositioning of the eyeball to the eyepiece. This would be a real disappointment as I expect to see a sharp round field stop with totally dark surround on an alpha level binocular.....

Stephanie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gijs van Ginkel View Post
For me the discussion about the field stop looks as kind of a linguistic problem here perhaps. I understand from it: can you see the rim of the image circle? Of course you can and I could see that but, as Jan already wrote, outside the image circle there is darkness-nothing-no image.
Gijs van Ginkel
Gijs, I think there is more chance of you understanding our English, than you understanding our Dutch - especially if you are with Jan because then everything would be Double Dutch !

I'm still trying to sift through the actual (and expected) viewing experience with regard to Swarovski's statements about the edges ??

I take it from those who have viewed through the bin so far that there is a sharp edge viewable, and that everything is clear right up to the edge of this circle, and then everything outside of this circle is all black. So far so good.

What I (and I think others?) would like confirmed is:-
When the binocular has been set up correctly for your IPD and ER ....... AND you are looking straight ahead at the CENTRE of the view AND not moving your gaze from the centre of the view (not even subconciously - as in microsaccades etc) ...... THEN are you aware of that sharp edged field stop (by sight - not memory) ??

It would seem to me that from their statements, Swarovski expects that people would NOT be aware of those edges when fixated on the centre point view. Is this correct ?







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Old Sunday 12th July 2020, 14:57   #666
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Chosun, when you're not using binoculars, do you have some medical condition in your eyes that gives you extreme tunnel vision, or do you see 180° or more like the rest of us? If not, why would you expect a binocular to change that?
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Old Sunday 12th July 2020, 15:12   #667
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The AFOVs of the NLs are only 69º-71º. There is no reason why an observer with normal eyesight wouldn't be able to see their field stops when looking straight ahead. Since by all accounts the eyepiece of the NL can form a reasonably sharp image at the field edge it almost certainly can form a reasonably sharp image of the field stop at the field edge.

At this point I imagine Wolfgang at Swarovski wishes he had never said what he said about "invisible" field edges.
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Old Sunday 12th July 2020, 15:13   #668
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Chosun Juan, post 665,
The image of the NL I could use for a very short time was sharp up to the rim of the field and you could see the end of the image as a sharp and over the image line it became image-less/dark.
Hope that is clear.
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Old Sunday 12th July 2020, 16:37   #669
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The AFOVs of the NLs are only 69º-71º. There is no reason why an observer with normal eyesight wouldn't be able to see their field stops when looking straight ahead.
I read a brief remark somewhere in the old literature that experiments showed an AFOV of >90 degrees didn't work for most observers in terrestrial viewing. Apparently not seeing the edge of the field of view is something most observers find hard getting used to. Can't remember the reference, it was probably in one of the old articles from the "Zeiss Werkszeitschrift".

Now, 70 degrees isn't anywhere near that, and I can see the edge clearly in the old Zeiss 10x50 Porro.

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Old Monday 13th July 2020, 23:06   #670
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Some additional images from Sport Optics at: https://www.sportoptics.com/swarovsk...lar-36012.aspx

The first shows the diopter scale on the rear of the bridge, along with the serial number
Interestingly the number has an A prefix as is also used on the centre focus Porro prism Habichts

However, the unit numbering sequence for the NL’s runs from 40000 to 49999 (as it also does for the EL’s and SLC’s) verses 10000 to 19999 for the Habichts

The second shows another view of the FSB bag

And the last shows both the new UCS neck strap along with the strap for the FSB bag


John
Attached Thumbnails
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Old Monday 13th July 2020, 23:44   #671
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Originally Posted by John A Roberts View Post
Some additional images from Sport Optics at: https://www.sportoptics.com/swarovsk...lar-36012.aspx

The first shows the diopter scale on the rear of the bridge, along with the serial number
Interestingly the number has an A prefix as is also used on the centre focus Porro prism Habichts

However, the unit numbering sequence for the NL’s runs from 40000 to 49999 (as it also does for the EL’s and SLC’s) verses 10000 to 19999 for the Habichts

The second shows another view of the FSB bag

And the last shows both the new UCS neck strap along with the strap for the FSB bag


John
Thanks, John. I wonder how the headrest installs? Do you have to remove those little allen screws?
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Old Tuesday 14th July 2020, 01:40   #672
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Hi Dennis,

At this stage I’m not certain, as we’ve only seen a limited number of images. Though Jan or Gijs may be able to offer more information
based on their hands-on experience with the NL/ FRP combination

In 2018 Swarovski filed a patent in Austria that covered how to attach a forehead support to binoculars
The patent includes various ways to allow for IPD adjustment with the rest attached. However, all seem more complicated than what’s actually used on the FRP
See the attached images (Figures 2 and 3 may be conceptually closest to that of the FRP)


John
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Old Tuesday 14th July 2020, 03:02   #673
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Hello,

however, Dennis is not entirely wrong with his advice that the ELs sell extremely well, that is of course not only due to the sharp edges but also!

I myself also prefer the Flatfield glasses, my impression, the overall sharpness of the image makes it appear more harmonious and balanced.
I had the Zeiss 7x42 Victory for a while, due to the lack of edge sharpness and extreme astigmatism it spoiled my vision, I sold it.

When I look through binoculars with normal edge blurring for a while and then switch to Swarovski 8.5x42, I always think what an incredible optical performance!

It is not so easy to say that sharp edges are unnecessary because you only look through the middle anyway, flat fields are becoming more and more popular, why only?

Andreas
Apologies for dredging the edge performance thing from way back in the thread, but I find the perception of edge performance in myself and other users, and the issue of its desirability in binoculars, quite interesting.

I wear glasses, so if my eye travels beyond the area covered by my glasses everything blurs out. But within those limits my perception of sharpness is pretty good - not as sharp as dead center, but pretty decent. I would say, looking at the diagram that denco (please excuse me while I go and wash my mouth out with soap...) attached to his post #490, that my perception of sharpness over the central, paracentral, macular and I think most all of the "near peripheral" regions is pretty good. That's just under 80 degrees AFOV, and because my own personal "sweet spot" is reasonably good, I do often move my eyeballs when searching for things within that sweet spot, rather than moving my head. I read a book, magazine or computer monitor similarly.

When using binoculars, after having experienced binoculars that are sharp to the edge, I do notice when the edges are less sharp. I can't say that I take in the entire field of view all in at once, like denco says he does; but I can see why he says that (did I really just say that?), because I normally make myself aware of what's in that central and near peripheral sector by flickering my eyes around - but that is a pretty quick process in real time (I wouldn't say instantaneous, but a process that takes place over only a few seconds). When using binoculars, I do the same flickering around, but mostly within the limits of the binocular's sweet spot. A binocular with a smaller field of view but large sweet spot, therefore, can to some extent compensate for one with a larger field of view but smaller sweet spot - because that larger sweet spot increases the actual zone that my eyes spend most of their time scanning to a comparable or sometimes even greater level. Binoculars that have the so-called field flatteners achieve the effect of being sharp virtually all the way to the edge, and, like Condomat in the post I quoted above, I do notice this - to me the effect is that what I see is almost all sweet spot. I have tried my 8x42 FL black alongside my brother's 8.5x42 Swarovision on several occasions and when doing so I find the superior edge performance of the latter does makes itself apparent, although I quickly adapt back to the FL (which is an excellent binocular in its own right, more than good enough for me).

That said, a larger field of view, even if not sharp to the edge, is still useful, as motion beyond the sweet spot can still be detected in one's peripheral vision, and may alert you to something interesting. I also think that a larger field of view, even though not sharp to the edge, is aesthetically pleasing. The perception (and I guess the reality too) is that one is seeing more, and it helps give that "open window" feeling. Binoculars that combine a large field of view with edge sharpness most closely match the natural sweet spot of my eyes, and my experience when looking through the 10x50 WX, especially when tripod-mounted, is almost as though my natural vision has been magnified. Presumably the NL is designed to offer a similar sort of experience.

It would be interesting to hear from other users how their sharpness perception is across their naked eye AFOV, and how they observe both with and without binoculars. It's pretty clear from this and other discussions that edge performance is a quality that some users appreciate a great deal, and others don't particularly care for. I recall Alexis Powell has said he flickers his eyes around the field of view of his binoculars, while others, it seems, prefer to move their entire head in order to keep things in the center field. The differences between how we observe must be part of the reason why some of us find edge performance more important than others.

Edge performance, its perception by us users, and its desirability in binoculars is one of these subjects that deserves a separate thread. I've read, and found very interesting, three discussions on field flatteners (here , here and here). One thing I don't fully understand, though, is that, per this post by jring, "in order to get edge to edge sharpness over a wide true field of view, field flatteners are very much necessary". Yet it seems possible to design binoculars with a large/very large sweet spot without the use of field flattening lenses. Can anyone explain how a large sweet spot without the use of field flatteners is achieved?
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Old Tuesday 14th July 2020, 07:20   #674
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Thanks, John. I wonder how the headrest installs? Do you have to remove those little allen screws?
Yep, that's correct.

Jan
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