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Scottish Hen Harrier found shot, two missing. (1 Viewer)

Unless someone is actually cauight in the act, it's difficult to see how we will ever stop this mindless slaughter, perhaps it's time to establish 'vicarious liablity' and prosecute landowners for birds found shot on their land?


https://www.rarebirdalert.co.uk/v2/...hilst_two_others_disappear.aspx?s_id=66586714

Even though they might be pro Hen Harrier themselves? Doesn't resemble any 'justice' I've ever heard of.

Yes it's difficult to prove, but that doesn't justify the widening of liablity to selected people in every case. Vicarious liablity has to be linked to a particular feature of the system being held liable. In most cases who would be the 'system' is clear e.g. a company or other legally-constituted group. But I could shoot a Hen Harrier on my land only for it to die on yours after lumbering on, injured. Would you enjoy being prosecuted (even if we didn't know each other and had different occupations and levels of income etc.)? We should be careful about 'rights'.
 
Then what's to stop the shooter from retrieving the carcase and putting it on a Harrier-friendly landowner's land? Yes they are that devious.

So what are your ideas, easy to deconstruct the suggestions of others, answers are the hard bit....................
 
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Even though they might be pro Hen Harrier themselves? Doesn't resemble any 'justice' I've ever heard of.

Yes it's difficult to prove, but that doesn't justify the widening of liablity to selected people in every case. Vicarious liablity has to be linked to a particular feature of the system being held liable. In most cases who would be the 'system' is clear e.g. a company or other legally-constituted group. But I could shoot a Hen Harrier on my land only for it to die on yours after lumbering on, injured. Would you enjoy being prosecuted (even if we didn't know each other and had different occupations and levels of income etc.)? We should be careful about 'rights'.

Most of this is happening with at the very least, a blind eye from landowners, they are complicit.

Something akin to'joint enterprise', widen the scope of liablility to make people think twice.
 
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So what are your ideas, easy to deconstruct the arguments of others.....................

To rely on known principles of justice. If you can't prove someone did something he can't be convicted of it. I was told by a conservationist in the 70s that the Scottish estate of a then highly-placed politician was 'well known' to be involved in offences under the Wildlife laws. Yes, but no court would be interested in what was 'well-known'. They would require proof. Now because 'proof' is very difficult to get, that doesn't mean we should chuck individual rights out of the window. Life is an ordeal, not a wish-list.
 
To rely on known principles of justice. If you can't prove someone did something he can't be convicted of it. I was told by a conservationist in the 70s that the Scottish estate of a then highly-placed politician was 'well known' to be involved in offences under the Wildlife laws. Yes, but no court would be interested in what was 'well-known'. They would require proof. Now because 'proof' is very difficult to get, that doesn't mean we should chuck individual rights out of the window. Life is an ordeal, not a wish-list.

Still no real, practical ideas there, just moralising.
 
Value harriers. Tie grants, tax reliefs and so on to the numbers of nesting harriers. Make it more expensive to lose harriers than keep them
Paul
 
Set up a Harrier Agency which works with landowners to assess the range of nests that might be expected on their land. Fine landowners who have several consecutive years of nest numbers below the bottom of the range.
Forget trying to prosecuting harrier killings, just make it financially pointless.
Paul
 
Long jail sentences and vicarious liability are what is needed imho.

Fines are a waste of time. The landowners and their employees just laugh at us and take the piss. They, the Judiciary and elements of the Constabulary are part of a cosy cartel and know they can get away with murder:C

Mass trespass and destruction of the shooting butts might get their attention but direct action is not what birders do.....

Laurie -
 
That's not going to happen now. If anything, it'll be the opposite - harriers will likely get taken off the protected list at the behest of the landowners, and any option to investigate harrier killing made impossible.
 
That's not going to happen now. If anything, it'll be the opposite - harriers will likely get taken off the protected list at the behest of the landowners, and any option to investigate harrier killing made impossible.

The nonsense words of a bad loser.
 
They already have their own parliament, what do you think would change under independance?

Yes, and they've already adopted vicarious liability. They show a genuine concern for their wildlife. Freed from the murderous Old Etonians of Westminster they would inevitably start to make progress in raptor protection.

John
 
Yes, and they've already adopted vicarious liability. They show a genuine concern for their wildlife. Freed from the murderous Old Etonians of Westminster they would inevitably start to make progress in raptor protection.

John

Well they clearly are not applying it then, you can't blame the English for that!
 
Well they clearly are not applying it then, you can't blame the English for that!

That goes back to the issue of proving it in court: and as already pointed out the Westminster government will be looking to close down opportunities for evidence gathering. An independent Scotland will have opportunities to improve evidence gathering and their trajectory to date suggests they will do so.

John
 
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