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Lappet faced vulture and eurasian black vulture

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Old Friday 20th April 2007, 08:44   #1
TorgosTracheliotus
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Lappet faced vulture and eurasian black vulture

I would like to hear opinions on which is the most aggressive of the two vultures.
The lappet faced vulture is slightly smaller on average 6.8 kg (max 13.6 kg) while the eursian black vulture reaches 8.1 kg (max 14 kg) on average.
While being slightly smaller I assume the lappet-faced vulture is more aggressive due to its interaction with more co-predators compared to the eurasian black vulture ( it is lonelier on the mountains compared to the african savana).

Interractions of the two birds:
i)Lappet-faced vulture:
-known to fight-off jackals
-known to attack martial eagles and tawny eagles ( a lappet-faced vulture once attacked a martial eagle after the eagle killed an almost fully grown jackal- from a book (Jane [email protected] chimp lady was one of the authors).
-its the dominant vulture at the carcase ( excluding lions and hyenas).

ii)Eurasian black vultures:
-i heard there was an expert here whom said the eurasian black vulture has attacked and chase off golden eagles from their food and the golden eagle flew off without any resistance)
-its the dominat vulture at carcases too ( excluding the wolf and snow leopard).

Being fair both vultures had their share of interactions ( though i still think the lappet-faced vulture is more aggressive). Could anyone share their opinions? Thanks.
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Old Monday 23rd April 2007, 06:16   #2
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As it seems you like vultures as much as I do. I also thought about this, who would be the ultimate dominant vulture, if they'd occur together.
I would stick with the black vulture, though i also heard that they usually dont chase griffons and they can feed together peacefully most of the times, and lappet-faced vultures often have agressive interactions with others and with each other too.
there was a good article about east-african vultures, it conclusions said that ranks at carcass more or less a body mass order, so....
we really need a vulture expert here, until enjoy the photos....
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Old Saturday 19th May 2007, 19:06   #3
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any experts on these birds out there?
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Old Friday 29th June 2007, 18:37   #4
TorgosTracheliotus
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Still waiting for answers guys.
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Old Tuesday 11th September 2007, 13:08   #5
eagleman
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In spain is also documented a case in wich the golden eagle instantly kill the balck vulture..
there is a case in wich a Bonneli's eagle killen an griffon vulture, also in Spain.
So those big , huge vultures are no mach for the real equipped killers !
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Old Tuesday 11th September 2007, 14:53   #6
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according to what i read tho black vultures are constnatly displacing golden eagles from carcasses and they also steal from golden eagles
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Old Tuesday 11th September 2007, 16:05   #7
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I know many of you on this forum have experience with these 2 amazing raptors in regards to their relationship with the worlds eagles and you have been able to watch this in person

sadly I wish i could do this but my funds are limited and I work full time I dont have the same bird watching opportunities as many of you so most of my watching is actually done through this forum

It would be really nice if someone could please offer some insight in the relationship between these 2 magnificent birds
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Old Wednesday 30th September 2009, 04:28   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagleman View Post
In spain is also documented a case in wich the golden eagle instantly kill the balck vulture..
there is a case in wich a Bonneli's eagle killen an griffon vulture, also in Spain.
So those big , huge vultures are no mach for the real equipped killers !

Well, there is an account on google search regarding griffon vultures and golden eagles displacing bennoli eagles from their nest.
Back to topic, in 'Vultures of Africa' by Peter Mundy, the lappet-faced vulture (accounts on this vulture pirating martial eagles are available) is smaller but more aggressive and has a stronger beak compared to the eurasian black vulture and according to 'Raptors of the World', there is a small possible chance that those birds might overlap in the middle east, the lappet-faced vulture is acctually about the same size as the eurasian black vulture giving it a low weight per body size ratio which enables it to take off surprisingly easy for its size (lands better than the white-backed vultures which sometimes lands clumsily).
The pecking order of african vultures:
-Lappet-faced vulture (according to 'Birds of Africa' even the juveniles can dominate griffons)
-Cape griffon
-White-headed vulture (its a moot point to weather griffons can dominate white-headed vultures - it is surprisingly larger in size the white-backed vulture though ligher in weight)
-Ruppell's griffon
-White-backed vulture
-Hooded vulture
-Egyptian vulture (it would most likely give way meekly to the hooded vulture at carcasses but it will fight back with it aggressively at ostrich eggs).

Last edited by BrownnishSkua : Wednesday 30th September 2009 at 04:36.
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Old Wednesday 14th October 2009, 04:40   #9
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Some additional information regarding lappet-faced vulture from 'Raptors of the World':

Quote:
Field characteristics: Huge bulky vulture, as adult mostly blackish with white thighs, with massive bill (approaching 10 cm long and 5 cm deep), variably distinct fleshly folds ('lappets') on bare head nd neck, short dense ruff on rear neck and elongated fathers to sides and below thinly covering short white down, plain downy thighs. Perches on trees with head up or stands on ground with upright haughty stance, long wings about equal to shortish tail, walks easily and occassionally dashes or leaps forward to cause chaos in vulture throng. Sexes similar (and partial albinos are also recorded), but female averages 2% larger and judging from overweight captive birds, over 50% heavier, juvenile distinguishable, as adult after six to seven years.
page 440

Surprisingly some on the information are a repetition of 'Vultures of Africa' by Peter Mundy and special thanks to a poster whom reminded me of the information in that book regarding the lappet-faced vulture acctually having bigger talons than the eurasian black vulture (under the eurasian black vulture section saying that it has a longer but less massive beak than the LPV). I for got the page and can't believe I have forgoten such vital information.

Quote:
Meausrements:
Male: Wing: 715 to 795mm, Tail: 330 - 375mm, tarsus: 122 to 150mm
Female: Wing: 755 to 825mm, Tail: 335mm to 360mm, tarsus: 134mm to 150mm
Weights: 5.4 to 9.4 kg, averaging only 6.2kg in East Africa (but captive negevensis male: 6.5 to 9.2 kg, female: 10.5 to 13.9 kg
pg 441

I am surprise the longest tail and tarsus for the male lappet-faced vulture exceeds that of the female and yet the wingspan does not (there must be some error in the info? If thats the case the largest wingspan of the male LPV should exceed the female too).
Surprisingl, there is not much information on the negevensis subspecies though the female captive species are probably overweight - the negevensis is the largest of the subspecies of the LPVs and if you google search pictures or see one in real life, the negevensis is the duller and greyer of the two and easily confused with EBVs at times.

Last edited by BrownnishSkua : Wednesday 14th October 2009 at 04:43.
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Old Wednesday 14th October 2009, 04:53   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyNameIsRita View Post
As it seems you like vultures as much as I do. I also thought about this, who would be the ultimate dominant vulture, if they'd occur together.
I would stick with the black vulture, though i also heard that they usually dont chase griffons and they can feed together peacefully most of the times, and lappet-faced vultures often have agressive interactions with others and with each other too.
there was a good article about east-african vultures, it conclusions said that ranks at carcass more or less a body mass order, so....
we really need a vulture expert here, until enjoy the photos....
Regarding the sentence underlined - it seems to be similar to someting said in 'Vulture of Africa' by Peter Mundy, the larger vulture but not the heavier vulture is the one that dominates (the lappet-faced vulture is not as heavy as the cape griffon and yet it has a larger body mass and according to 'Birds of Africa', even juvenile lappet-faced vultures are capable of dominating griffons though unable to compete with adults and adult white-headed vultures are able to dominate heavier white-backed vutures - even juvenile white-headed vultures and griffons are capable of dominating adult white-backed vultures) - and surprisingly the white-headed vulture is the one with a larger mass but lighter in weight.
The negevensis subspecies of the lappet-faced vulture is said to be at least the same size as the eurasian black vulture though lighter in weight and EBVs seems to be similar in size as eurasian griffons yet capable of dominating them one on one.

Last edited by BrownnishSkua : Wednesday 14th October 2009 at 04:57.
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Old Saturday 17th October 2009, 23:39   #11
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an interesting encounter between LFV and Jackals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-2ZsJCIlDY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRJED...1&feature=fvwp

and some encounters written about here:-

http://www.wildwatch.com/sightings/flying-jackal

http://www.ilkeliani.com/news.php?fname=news
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Old Sunday 18th October 2009, 04:14   #12
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It acctually depends on the mood of the LPVs - a hungry LPV is generally more aggressive compared to one which is full or at least almost full or partially hungry.
Within a tight throng of griffons - only an aggressive LPV can break through the ranks.
And in one of the account seeing the gnu carcase was almost finish, the LPV must have eaten its fill given the fact it is the vulture that rips open the tough hide and feeds until satisfied but sometimes losses interest after ripping the hide thus allowing other scavengers to benefit - it really depends on the situation.

http://k41.pbase.com/o6/24/687524/1/...ON8Y6843PB.jpg

Jackal approaching juvenile LPV cautiously.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k1...4/22938417.jpg

Blacked-backed jackal being warned off by LPV.

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Old Monday 19th October 2009, 11:52   #13
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but judging by that video clip 2 LPv's unsuccessfully try rob a Jackal twice and it fought them both off.

i dont think lpv's are capable of predating jackals - figthing them off is a different thing. even then there are enough cases of a jackal figthing off lpv too.

i htink people are more highly likely to record and emphasise a vulture fighting off a jackal because it maybe "new" to them.
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Old Tuesday 20th October 2009, 02:19   #14
BrownnishSkua
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Himalaya View Post
but judging by that video clip 2 LPv's unsuccessfully try rob a Jackal twice and it fought them both off.
I couldn't here the sound properly, however, according to 'Vulture's of Africa' by Peter Mundy, the lappet-faced vulture sometimes attacks a throng of griffons not to feed but to display their aggression and dominance and quickly lose interest. The jackals did a fair bit of running too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himlaya View Post
i dont think lpv's are capable of predating jackals - figthing them off is a different thing. even then there are enough cases of a jackal figthing off lpv too.
Black-backed [email protected] jackals are acctually more aggressive compared to the larger golden jackals and takes more risk though when extremely hungry a golden jackal will keep the balck-backed jackal at bay and in the video which says 'its a foolish jackal which tangles with a lappet-faced vulture' (and during that time the jackal was hungry and the lappet-faced vulture was in an extremely aggressive mood faught off the golden jackal and would do the same to the blacked-backed [email protected] jackal at that time). According to 'Vultures of Africa' by Peter Mundy, the jackal is armed with sharped teeth and capable of dominating any vultures yet keeps a wary eye out for the lappet-faced vulture means that they know when the vulture is in an aggressive mood. The lappet-faced vulture also possess some weaponary to at least injure and kill jackalls but it hardly happens except in that video of the LPV eating a golden jackal alive because the jackal is treated like a competitor rather than prey. LPV attacking jackals acctually involved physical contact compared to vice versa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himalaya View Post
htink people are more highly likely to record and emphasise a vulture fighting off a jackal because it maybe "new" to them.
Those are impressive incidents. I acctually got interested in this incident about seven years ago after watching a series on NGO (Wings of the Serrengetti?) saying that lappet-faced vultures are acctually stronger than jackals.

Last edited by BrownnishSkua : Tuesday 20th October 2009 at 02:23.
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