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What can/can't we tick in the UK?

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Old Tuesday 17th May 2016, 18:21   #1
Ross Ahmed
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What can/can't we tick in the UK?

If a bird new to the UK emanates from a self-sustaining population in a different country, is it admitted to category C of the UK list?

If you see a species in the UK when it was part of a self-sustaining population, but the population is no longer deemed to be self-sustaining, do
people still count the bird on their UK list? Presumably, in the case of Lady Amherst's Pheasant, this scenario will arise soon.

A number of Lesser White-fronted Geese have turned up in the UK from the Swedish re-introduction scheme. The Swedish population is not yet self-sustaining and so we cannot count these Lesser White-fronted Geese on our list. But say the Swedish population is considered to be self-sustaining at a future date? Can we count Lesser White-fronted Geese seen in the UK when they weren't self-sustaining?
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Old Wednesday 18th May 2016, 09:05   #2
Adam W
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I see no reason why we shouldn't tick birds that have come from self sustaining re-introductions if we tick birds from our own re-introductions. For example if we tick say Red Kite or White Tailed Eagle here then why not tick a Swedish Lesser Whitefront that turns up here if and when they become self sustaining. Surely it would have to be both or neither?
I'd also agree with ticking the last remaining birds from what were once self sustaining populations though I guess it could be tricky to know whether it really is one of the last or just a one off escape.
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Old Wednesday 18th May 2016, 11:49   #3
Ross Ahmed
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I see no reason why we shouldn't tick birds that have come from self sustaining re-introductions if we tick birds from our own re-introductions. For example if we tick say Red Kite or White Tailed Eagle here then why not tick a Swedish Lesser Whitefront that turns up here if and when they become self sustaining. Surely it would have to be both or neither?
Thanks Adam. But don't think your first paragraph answers the question! The Lesser White-fronted Goose population in Sweden is currently not self-sustaining and therefore, for example, the bird at Boldon Flats in 2005 isn't tickable. But as soon as the population becomes self-sustaining, does the Boldon Flats bird in 2005 becomes retrospectively tickable?
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Old Wednesday 18th May 2016, 21:21   #4
Adam W
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Thanks Adam. But don't think your first paragraph answers the question! The Lesser White-fronted Goose population in Sweden is currently not self-sustaining and therefore, for example, the bird at Boldon Flats in 2005 isn't tickable. But as soon as the population becomes self-sustaining, does the Boldon Flats bird in 2005 becomes retrospectively tickable?
Sorry Ross I didn't quite read your post correctly, In that case I don't think most people would be comfortable ticking a bird that was from a population that wasn't self sustaining at the time just because they have become self sustaining since. That said the more I think about it it is a bit tricky because how do we decide exactly when they become tickable? There would have to be a point where one bird is the last untickable one but the next bird is the first tickable one which sounds a bit daft really.
In some ways ticking retrospectively makes more sense that way you still end up ticking all of them or none of them.
There is also the fact that I didn't manage to see the Boldon flats bird so maybe i'll stick with untickable
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Old Wednesday 18th May 2016, 21:36   #5
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One of the great mysteries of birding is that BOURC cite Ruddy Shelduck as a potential Category C5 (vagrant from an established introduced population elsewhere), yet don't actually accept any of the many individuals recorded in Britain as such. They seem to think there's a mass escape of this species from zoos every summer . . .

Though it should probably be in Cat A from the big invasion a decade or two ago which came via Scandinavia (where it is extremely rare as a captive), likely from central Asia originally.

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Old Wednesday 25th May 2016, 21:45   #6
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One of the great mysteries of birding is that BOURC cite Ruddy Shelduck as a potential Category C5 (vagrant from an established introduced population elsewhere), yet don't actually accept any of the many individuals recorded in Britain as such. They seem to think there's a mass escape of this species from zoos every summer . . .

Though it should probably be in Cat A from the big invasion a decade or two ago which came via Scandinavia (where it is extremely rare as a captive), likely from central Asia originally.
Agreed. I've seen Ruddy Shelduck at Tring Reservoirs in the winters of 1995 and 1996. In my view, these were good candidates for vagrant birds from the introduced Scandinavian population (the site harbours good numbers of winter migrant wildfowl), but I cannot (well, choose not to!) include them in my British list due to the BOU's stance. Just where does the BOURC think all the escaped Ruddy Shelduck in the UK come from?!
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Old Wednesday 25th May 2016, 21:49   #7
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Just where does the BOURC think all the escaped Ruddy Shelduck in the UK come from?!
I've probably got this totally wrong, but isn't their stance something like we don't know where they've come from and odd ones might have been wild but we can't put a finger on which ones?
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Old Tuesday 2nd August 2016, 11:57   #8
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There is a self sustaining population of introduced ruddy shelduck in the Netherlands - and these birds show regular migratory movements.

Its likely that some, if not most, (or even all?) of our ruddy shelducks are from this stock. I agree that it's likely that there are genuine vagrant ones, but which ones are they?

Another likely candidate for addition to C5 is bar-headed goose. Spring peaks in arrivals (sometimes of large groups) in eastern Scotland and the Northern isles - and much less chance that these are genuine vagrants...!
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Old Wednesday 3rd August 2016, 18:00   #9
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There is a self sustaining population of introduced ruddy shelduck in the Netherlands - and these birds show regular migratory movements.

Its likely that some, if not most, (or even all?) of our ruddy shelducks are from this stock. I agree that it's likely that there are genuine vagrant ones, but which ones are they?
A group of six past Sandwich today at a time of year when they are expected by all except, apparently, the BOURC - the situation is ridiculous - the birds are plainly Cat A on the basis of 1994 or Cat C5 on the basis of any or all of the recent records - its daft ostrich-like behaviour like this that gets BOURC a bad name. The solution is in their own hands.

Checking back notebooks reveals that I saw Ruddy Shelducks at Copperhouse Creek and downhill from the Ferry Inn on Sheppey within a couple of months: Hayle and Harty - I'll get my coat.....

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Old Wednesday 3rd August 2016, 18:30   #10
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Going back to one of my original questions, are there any species on Cat C of the British list that have a self-sustaining introduced population OUTSIDE of the UK?
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Old Thursday 4th August 2016, 11:09   #11
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Going back to one of my original questions, are there any species on Cat C of the British list that have a self-sustaining introduced population OUTSIDE of the UK?
Ross,

See below a link to The British List: A Checklist of Birds of Britain (8th Edition) (2013). You will note there are no species listed in Cat C5 and, as far as I am aware, that remains the case.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...ibi.12069/full

There are several species on Cat C in Britain that have self-sustaining populations in Europe e.g Greater Canada Goose, Egyptian Goose, Common Pheasant etc but I am not going to waste time going through every countries avifauna to find which species are on Cat C and in which countries!

Interesting that the Spanish, for instance, list Lesser White-fronted Goose, Mandarin and Ruddy Duck in Cat C5 though I and unsure whether this is the official list.

http://www.rarebirdspain.net/espaa00.pdf

Grahame

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Old Friday 5th August 2016, 08:26   #12
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- its daft ostrich-like behaviour like this that gets BOURC a bad name.
Is this sufficient grounds for ticking Struthio camelus in UK?
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