• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Grey Squirrels wiping out Spotted Flycatchers? (1 Viewer)

Touty said:
Again... courageous work by the Game Conservancy - can anyone imagine the RSPB killing Grey Squirrels in field trials to see if they can save Britain's Hawfinches and Willow Tits?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/11/nbirds11.xml
Click to expand...
The sooner they begin the better. Greys find themselves few natural predators so far as I can see. If we don't step in, then we can say goodbye to certain other species. In a local rich, old woodland where greys have been left untouched, their numbers are incredible to behold.

What I find really odd is how this has taken so very long to be understood. I recall bringing it up many years ago and the idea that greys were in any way a problem to other species was discounted.

Why "courageous", btw?
 
Last edited:
While I agree with the elimination of grey squirrels due to them being an introduced species I don't agree with the elimination/extermination of natural predators. If all natural predators were eliminated it would make the flycatchers population unnaturally high.
 
"Missing from the charge sheet are: starting the Second World War and spawning Al Qaeda. But perhaps this will be rectified in subsequent government announcements."

(From Touty's link.)

Dramatise much?
 
Touty said:
Because publicising the benefits of any control of opportunistic predators in UK brings down a mass of bad publicity on the heads of whoever engages in it to the extent that the RSPB does it 'on the quiet' on reserves such as Abernethy.

Then there are dunderheads like these:

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/pr_wildlife/ALL/1279//
Click to expand...
i'm not sure whether they are dunderheads or not but they make some interesting points
after all humans have destroyed far more woodland than squirrels and yet i dont see many people calling for them to be culled
also if there were no grey squirrels and the red squirrel numbers were high and they were doing the damage that greys are doing would we be talking about culling a natural predator
also there have been reintroductions ,largely welcomed on this forum,of top predators sea eagles,red kites etc which presumably have had an affect on the wildlife where they have been released on the grounds that these birds used to be presant so they are being restored so hopefully the balance of nature will also be restored
well if there used to be thousands of red squirrels doing what squirrels do that have been replaced by thousands of greys doing what squirrels do then removing the greys will leave an envoirment where there are no squirrels doing
what squirrels do which will have an effect on the enviroment which may in turn have negative or postive effects that have not been forseen.
after all IF the information in touty's link was right and large amounts of red squirrels were culled in the past then it seems they were just as destructive as greys
after all it is hardly surprising that in any land area where predators are controlled that the numbers of prey species go up it is even less surprising that when the controls are removed prey species go down
but surely the second scenario is the more natural one after all it seems the argument that is being proposed for the grey squirrel is very simillar to those put forward in the past by gamekeepers killing hen harriers and other birds of prey on the grouse moors.
after all spotted flycatchers are presumably predated by other creatures aswell so where do you draw the line
 
PaulE said:
i'm not sure whether they are dunderheads or not but they make some interesting points
Click to expand...
Oh I think some of them are definitely dunderheads...

(-;

It's true, however, that they do make some interesting points - but I can only assume that they have never seen the sheer mass of squirrels that live in a nearby small woodland - perhaps hundreds. Goodness knows how so many can survive in such a small area but any sane person would agree it's out of hand. It's clear to me that in most woodlands, squirrel numbers must be being quietly controlled as the numbers usually seen are far fewer.

PaulE said:
after all humans have destroyed far more woodland than squirrels and yet i dont see many people calling for them to be culled
Click to expand...
Not your finest point.

PaulE said:
also if there were no grey squirrels and the red squirrel numbers were high and they were doing the damage that greys are doing would we be talking about culling a natural predator
Click to expand...
Well, we need to deal with what we have not worry about theoretical scenarios.

PaulE said:
also there have been reintroductions, largely welcomed on this forum, of top predators sea eagles, red kites etc which presumably have had an affect on the wildlife where they have been released on the grounds that these birds used to be presant so they are being restored so hopefully the balance of nature will also be restored.
Click to expand...
Well, I think there are many who worry a great deal about these introductions, even though a few loud voices here might suggest otherwise. The sea eagle in Norfolk, for example, will take a lot of feeding, for sure.

PaulE said:
well if there used to be thousands of red squirrels doing what squirrels do that have been replaced by thousands of greys doing what squirrels do then removing the greys will leave an envoirment where there are no squirrels doing what squirrels do which will have an effect on the enviroment which may in turn have negative or postive effects that have not been forseen.
Click to expand...
Not so - the Guardian reported a farmer in Norflok who culled all greys from his extensive lands over a number of years and reported only a masive increase in songbird numbers.

PaulE said:
after all IF the information in touty's link was right and large amounts of red squirrels were culled in the past then it seems they were just as destructive as greys - after all it is hardly surprising that in any land area where predators are controlled that the numbers of prey species go up it is even less surprising that when the controls are removed prey species go down but surely the second scenario is the more natural one after all it seems the argument that is being proposed for the grey squirrel is very simillar to those put forward in the past by gamekeepers killing hen harriers and other birds of prey on the grouse moors.
Click to expand...
The argument is not at all the same. The grey squirrel breeds so prolifically that unless controlled the damage it causes is vast.

PaulE said:
after all spotted flycatchers are presumably predated by other creatures aswell so where do you draw the line
Click to expand...
As said above, the grey is simply a particularly prolific breeder. Like mice and rats, it seems to multiply so very readily it's frightening. I am sure if you were to visit the woodlands at Alvaston in Derbyshire, you would wonder how it was possible for so many squirrels to survive in so small an area.
 
Last edited:
Grey squirrels certainly do a lot of damage to nesting birds, down this way the squirrels are being hammered by Goshawk. Over the past few years i have noticed a dramatic decrease in Grey Squirrels when about in the woods.
 
PaulE said:
i'm not sure whether they are dunderheads or not but they make some interesting points
after all humans have destroyed far more woodland than squirrels and yet i dont see many people calling for them to be culled
also if there were no grey squirrels and the red squirrel numbers were high and they were doing the damage that greys are doing would we be talking about culling a natural predator
also there have been reintroductions ,largely welcomed on this forum,of top predators sea eagles,red kites etc which presumably have had an affect on the wildlife where they have been released on the grounds that these birds used to be presant so they are being restored so hopefully the balance of nature will also be restored
well if there used to be thousands of red squirrels doing what squirrels do that have been replaced by thousands of greys doing what squirrels do then removing the greys will leave an envoirment where there are no squirrels doing
what squirrels do which will have an effect on the enviroment which may in turn have negative or postive effects that have not been forseen.
after all IF the information in touty's link was right and large amounts of red squirrels were culled in the past then it seems they were just as destructive as greys
after all it is hardly surprising that in any land area where predators are controlled that the numbers of prey species go up it is even less surprising that when the controls are removed prey species go down
but surely the second scenario is the more natural one after all it seems the argument that is being proposed for the grey squirrel is very simillar to those put forward in the past by gamekeepers killing hen harriers and other birds of prey on the grouse moors.
after all spotted flycatchers are presumably predated by other creatures aswell so where do you draw the line
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is going to spend money culling GS to save trees.... the fact is that UK's burgeoning deer population is doing far more damage than any squirrels, grey, red or yellow. The point is, PaulE, that GS are firmly in the frame for potentially wiping out c.15% of the UK's woodland bird fauna including Hawfinch, Willow Tit and Lesser Spotted Woodpecker. They have no behavioural adaptations to this species' ability, unlike the RS, to rip its way quickly into rotten wood and to pay no heed to the aggression of parent birds. The largest male GS weigh 2.2x the largest RS and 4x the smallest female. They exist at far higher densities than RS ever did (except during the "squirrel plagues" that occurred when UK gamekeepers had killed all the predatory animals (end 19th, start 20th century).
 
Touty said:
I don't think anyone is going to spend money culling GS to save trees.... the fact is that UK's burgeoning deer population is doing far more damage than any squirrels, grey, red or yellow. The point is, PaulE, that GS are firmly in the frame for potentially wiping out c.15% of the UK's woodland bird fauna including Hawfinch, Willow Tit and Lesser Spotted Woodpecker. They have no behavioural adaptations to this species' ability, unlike the RS, to rip its way quickly into rotten wood and to pay no heed to the aggression of parent birds. The largest male GS weigh 2.2x the largest RS and 4x the smallest female. They exist at far higher densities than RS ever did (except during the "squirrel plagues" that occurred when UK gamekeepers had killed all the predatory animals (end 19th, start 20th century).
Click to expand...
Well made points, Touty, based on knowledge and experience rather than emotion. I wasn't aware of the differences between red and grey that you point out, although it was obvious that there had to be such differences for the current state of play to have arisen. If I hadn't seen the vast numbers that can survive in a small area without control, I'm not sure I would be thinking the way I am. In the woodland I am referring to the only word to describe them is an infestation.

I suspect, too, that we are, through our use of unprotected bird feeders, keeping them at unnaturally high levels. It's sadly ironic that we should be helping to create a burgeoning population of a species that predates so heavily on birdlife.

The idea of culling seems repulsive in so many ways, but when our activities lead to infestation by a species, whether they be mice, cockroaches, rats or squirrels, we surely have to do something. I'm disappointed that some kind of chemical sterilisation can't be employed rather than killing, but I'm sure it would be if it were feesible.
 
Last edited:
Only problem with the chemical sterilisation is the cost of research into making it grey squirrel-specific would come up to a lot more than the necessary number of shotgun shells...
 
valley boy said:
Grey squirrels certainly do a lot of damage to nesting birds, down this way the squirrels are being hammered by Goshawk. Over the past few years i have noticed a dramatic decrease in Grey Squirrels when about in the woods.
Click to expand...

The Goshawk (and the Great Horned Owl) are the two top predators (almost) missing from the GS equation in UK. The Game Conservancy has always stated that it is the problem of oversimplified food webs without top predators that lead to generalist mesopredators (such as foxes, corvids and GS) increasing to levels that put some prey species in danger. I can't see chemical sterilisation as an option.... almost all vertebrates function reproductively with half a dozen or so sex hormones that vary little from species to species and are easily mimicked by analogues (such as the various anabolic steroids which are recognised by the body as testosterone).
 
Its interesting that the finger always gets pointed a grey squirrels - true they can do a lot of damage, and in some areas occur in large areas, but we shouldn't loose sight of the fact that there are a lot of nest predators out there - mice, rats, all the mustelids, and great spotted woodpecker to name but a few. The latter has increased by over 100% since '94 and more than 200% since the '60s. GSW is a predator of both open cup and hole nesters - and an accomplished on at that. The picture is a lot more complicated than is put forwards by many organisations.
 
Rich Facey said:
Its interesting that the finger always gets pointed a grey squirrels - true they can do a lot of damage, and in some areas occur in large areas, but we shouldn't loose sight of the fact that there are a lot of nest predators out there - mice, rats, all the mustelids, and great spotted woodpecker to name but a few. The latter has increased by over 100% since '94 and more than 200% since the '60s. GSW is a predator of both open cup and hole nesters - and an accomplished on at that. The picture is a lot more complicated than is put forwards by many organisations.
Click to expand...
I don't think any of the predators you mention have increased as much as the grey squirrel, though - hence the problem (plus the gs has no upward predator, whereas the others you mention have). The number of GSWs in any woodland is quite small compared with grey squirrels and the amount of food those smaller predators need is minimal in comparison, I would think.
 
Last edited:
Reminds me of that Simsons episode where Bart finds the eggs which hatch into lizards. Bart releases the lizards after people try to kill them and they eat all of the town's feral pigeons...
The Simpsons said:
Skinner: Well, I was wrong; the lizards are a godsend.
Lisa: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by lizards?
Skinner: No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes. They'll wipe out the lizards.
Lisa: But aren't the snakes even worse?
Skinner: Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of gorilla that thrives on snake meat.
Lisa: But then we're stuck with gorillas!
Skinner: No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death.
Click to expand...
 
scampo said:
Well made points, Touty, based on knowledge and experience rather than emotion. I wasn't aware of the differences between red and grey that you point out, although it was obvious that there had to be such differences for the current state of play to have arisen. If I hadn't seen the vast numbers that can survive in a small area without control, I'm not sure I would be thinking the way I am. In the woodland I am referring to the only word to describe them is an infestation.

I suspect, too, that we are, through our use of unprotected bird feeders, keeping them at unnaturally high levels. It's sadly ironic that we should be helping to create a burgeoning population of a species that predates so heavily on birdlife.

The idea of culling seems repulsive in so many ways, but when our activities lead to infestation by a species, whether they be mice, cockroaches, rats or squirrels, we surely have to do something. I'm disappointed that some kind of chemical sterilisation can't be employed rather than killing, but I'm sure it would be if it were feesible.
Click to expand...
the points that touty made were indeed well made however the points i made were not made from "emotion" i have no particular moral objection to culling indeed i think a good case can be made for removing mink. however i do get sceptical when people make statements that the only way to save one species is to kill another
for instance fisherman want to cull seals to save fish
anglers want to cull cormorants
pigeon fanciers want to cull peregrines
however if grey squirrel numbers are as out of control as you claim(and i personally havn't seen swarms of them as you describe,maybe they are being controlled in the places i go) and they are as aggresive as you describe then maybe some control is needed my statements were made in the belief that the grey squirrel had simply replaced the red in the envoiroment and were doing the same amount of damage as reds would do at similar numbers
i also feel that you are mistaken that culling will produce a significant rise in woodland bird numbers
after all surely the major problems for these birds are loss of habitat,the large scale overuse of insectacides pesticdes etc,bad/non existant woodland management, trigger happy hunters in southern europe blasting anything that moves, conditions in the areas they migrate to,the increase in number of other predators sparrowhawks,magpies and if bill oddie is to be beleived woodpeckers etc.
you also make the point in your other post about the farmer in norfolk who removed the squirrels from his land and saw a large increase in the number of songbirds as said in my previous post it is not surprising if you remove a predator the prey species will increase and while it maybe desirable situation to have high numbers of songbirds it may not be a natural one.
surely a better way to help songbirds is to tackle some of the issues raised above and leave the squirrels to the goshawks
 
I don't think any of the predators you mention have increased as much as the grey squirrel, though - hence the problem (plus the gs has no upward predator, whereas the others you mention have). The number of GSWs in any woodland is quite small compared with grey squirrels and the amount of food those smaller predators need is minimal in comparison, I would think.
Click to expand...

Most of the mutleids have increased. The food required by an individual woodmouse, for example, is definatley smaller than that of a grey - but there are far far more mice and rats in a habitiat than grey squirrels. Just becasue they're not as conspicous as the grey tree rat shouldn't mean that their potential as a predator is slight or should be underestimated. The same goes for other mammalian or avian predators. Eggs and pulli represent a nice little store of nutirents that most opportunists will happily munch on. To quote form Siriwardena in Bird Study volume 51 on the potential of nest predators in the decline of the Wilow tit "It is important to note that no data were avialable on the abundance of mammalian potential nest predators.." This fact hasn't changed since the paper was published in 2004. When it comes to the effects of Grey squirrel and other nest predators on Biritsh birds, we are sadly lacking in research and it is just guess work. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the grey squirrel is an angel, but it does suffer from bad press and peoples personal views. And we need to know the exact extent of its effects before we rush into expensive control programs! GSW does have a preadtors - the sparrowhawk to name one.
 
Last edited:
s.g. said:
Good points PaulE,
Would the above also be prepaired to cull cats.

s. g.
Click to expand...

Since I am sure you will be unsurprised to learn that no-one wants to pop Tiddles in a sack and bludgeon her, I struggle to fathom why you ask the question, but for the sheer hell of it here is the staringly obvious answer.

No, the above would not be prepared to cull cats as that would be cruel and unnecessary. Aside from the effect it would have on songbird populations, it would also cause significant human suffering which is obviously a major consideration. Individual owners are fondly attached to individual named cats and any reasonable human will understand that the greater good of man and beast is not served by culling pets. In short, as I am sure you must realise, the analogy is totally flawed unless you have named all the squirrels in your garden and they curl up in front of your fire of an evening.

But many of us would like to see cats obliged to wear bells, and would very much welcome other initiatives to limit their impact on small mammal and particularly reptile and amphibian populations.

Why anyone persists in posting emotive nonsense like this is beyond me. Either find some scientific data, or a novel and cogent moral standpoint to challenge what Touty has kindly provided to enlighten us, or don't bother.

Graham
 
Last edited:
Warning! This thread is more than 17 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

wolfbirder
Morocco Marvels and Meanderings 21 - 28 March 2023
2 3
Replies
41
Views
5K
wolfbirder
wolfbirder
C
ABC Birds
50 51 52
Replies
1K
Views
65K
apbarr
apbarr
lgonz1008
Birding Yellowstone and Glacier National Park in May-June, 2021
Replies
7
Views
4K
lgonz1008
lgonz1008
wolfbirder
Capers in the Scottish Highlands 26 April - 1 May 2021
2
Replies
25
Views
7K
Ratal
Ratal
Troubador
Review of Kowa BD II 6.5x32 XD
7 8 9
Replies
166
Views
61K
fogdart
F

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top