September Moths (1 Viewer)

Paul Chapman · Sep 20, 2020

dantheman said:
Thanks Paul.

Do I understand that 835 is Flame Shoulder and 836 is Radford's Flame Shoulder? And we are talking about a paler (and with white hairs) on the dorsal surface of the abdomen (ie only visible by lifting the wings away) as opposed to the ventral surface (ie what you would see from looking underneath in a clear pot? Is there a difference between the two species at a glance looking at the underside of a moth in a clear pot?

Apologies for the questioning - I have seen wordy descriptions (some conflicting) in various resources for this elsewhere!

(Back in the summer when I was getting 10+ Flame Shoulders I should have analysed them better (including some long-winged individuals) to see variation in Flame Shoulder!!)

Cheers.

Spot on. Only look in detail at moths with a long black streak which goes past the lower oval. Rare in Flame Shoulder. It took me two days to see the hairs on my friend's moth to confirm it. When he first brought it round, it was flapping away. If I had only known to look then, it wouldn't have taken so long to confirm it.... Radford's records have been autumn things to date though it is double-brooded on the continent.

All the best

dantheman · Sep 20, 2020

Paul Chapman said:
Spot on. Only look in detail at moths with a long black streak which goes past the lower oval. Rare in Flame Shoulder. It took me two days to see the hairs on my friend's moth to confirm it. When he first brought it round, it was flapping away. If I had only known to look then, it wouldn't have taken so long to confirm it.... Radford's records have been autumn things to date though it is double-brooded on the continent.

Cool, ta. There have been two claimed Radford's on the county facebook group recently (both of which I think are Flames personally ;-) ). Someone did mention they may well come up earlier in the summer but much more likely to get overlooked.

JWN Andrewes · Sep 20, 2020

Some fascinating discussions on tricky species pairs going on here, all very educational and much appreciated. The Marbled Carpets are particularly relevant, because up here at the moment it's all about the Carpets. Last night, while attending the trap before turning in, I notched up 6 Common Marbled, 2 Garden a Green and a Red-green (I checked Autumn Green for that last one, but pretty sure it's a Red-green). This morning all I had to add to that was a Dusky Thorn sitting on top of the trap and a single Frosted Orange in it. Not even any Underwings!
With Common Marbled Carpet my second most numerous moth up here this year I have been checking under the wings of as many as possible, but nothing resembling Dark Marbled so far; when the ticks start drying up I will redouble my efforts on that score!

dantheman · Sep 20, 2020

Yes, we're hoping to buy some carpets in the next few weeks (can't say new carpets as we didn't have any old ones to start with). Looking at various beige/off-whites. On the Common/Dark Marbled Carpet front, 4 CMCs last night, twice as many as any previous occasion. Really surprised to hear DMCs are rare as Waring and Townsend states they are common ... think I need to check out their status in Cornwall tbh ...

EDIT: Not Cornwall, but Norfolk as an example on the excellent Norfolkmoths site -

https://www.norfolkmoths.co.uk/index.php?bf=17640&abh=70.097&next=yes
https://www.norfolkmoths.co.uk/index.php?bf=17620&abh=70.098&prev=yes

Comparing annual records, 2 thirds of the way down central section - generally CMC appears to be 1000+ records pa, DMC single figures pa

'Common' status in W&T presumably refers to the overall number of squares they have been recorded in on a national basis.

Andy Adcock · Sep 21, 2020

My pathetic overnight total of four moths, included a Brimstone Moth which is my latest record for the species by a whole month.

Rubia · Sep 21, 2020

I trapped for 4 hours again last night; yet again little was moving really. Warmish but clear sky. I ended up with 31 moths of 17 species. Nothing new, but some of the autumn moths are very lovely (Lunar Underwing, Beaded Chestnut, Black Rustic) and a pleasure to see. My only novelty was a Toadflax Brocade, which is fairly late; this is a moth that always fools me as the picture in Manley is awful and I constantly forget what it looks like.
Actinic seems to be liked by Yellow Underwing types so far.

Paul Chapman · Sep 22, 2020

andyadcock said:
Paul,
I thought mine looked pretty good as per waring, I thought that the angle of the rear edge of the dark, crossband, comes down from the leading edge of the wing in more of a curve in Common and in Dark, it's almost a right angle?

The depth of the 'W' in that same crossband is also deeper?

Agreed on yours as Dark Marbled Carpet now after some further staring. I attach my two patch Dark Marbled Carpets along with yours & my recent Common Marbled Carpet..........

Subtle differences.

All the best

Paul

Andy Adcock · Sep 22, 2020

Cheers Paul,
your time is appeciated.

JWN Andrewes · Sep 22, 2020

Low numbers last night, just 17 moths of 11 species, but some nice variety, with Rosy Rustic, Frosted Orange and a couple of Lunar Underwings (showing a nice colour contrast between them) constituting supporting cast for a bill topping new species for me, Beaded Chestnut.

dantheman · Sep 22, 2020

JWN Andrewes said:
Low numbers last night, just 17 moths of 11 species, but some nice variety, with Rosy Rustic, Frosted Orange and a couple of Lunar Underwings (showing a nice colour contrast between them) constituting supporting cast for a bill topping new species for me, Beaded Chestnut.

Nice pic. Realised I've completely forgotten about Beaded Chestnut ... hope I haven't dropped a clanger with Lunar Underwings ... :eek!:

Will have to check and post some up later (and hopefully not stealing any thunder!) - still doing well here numbers-wise.

Paul Chapman · Sep 22, 2020

dantheman said:
Nice pic. Realised I've completely forgotten about Beaded Chestnut ... hope I haven't dropped a clanger with Lunar Underwings ... :eek!:

Will have to check and post some up later (and hopefully not stealing any thunder!) - still doing well here numbers-wise.

Agreed. Nice pic.

I find them really tricky. I haven't had a Beaded Chestnut yet this year & they tend to be outnumbered & a little later....

All the best

dantheman · Sep 22, 2020

Paul Chapman said:
Agreed. Nice pic.

I find them really tricky. I haven't had a Beaded Chestnut yet this year & they tend to be outnumbered & a little later....

All the best

Cheers. Been having phone storage issues so haven't been taking so many pics but looking at the ones I did take seem ok ... fingers crossed.

Rubia · Sep 22, 2020

Low numbers for me too last night, over 4 hours. 34 of 19 species. Nothing new in the mix. A late Scarce Footman turned up. Single Tachystola and Clover Case-bearer, both not seen for a while. Setaceous Hebrew Character the highest count at 8.
A friend to the far west of the county came out to find 116 Lunar Underwings this morning!

dantheman · Sep 22, 2020

Rubia said:
A friend to the far west of the county came out to find 116 Lunar Underwings this morning!

Crumbs! Sheer lunacy ...

Whilst waiting for pics to arrive in my inbox, here's a semi-mystery ... I assumed at the time it was a runt Flounced Rustic. Beside a normal size FR. Wing length c12mm (The book states 14- 18mm). Clean white underwing with narrow dark border. Do you get runts like this or am I missing something (ie something else entirely)?

dantheman · Sep 22, 2020

Lunar Underwings

Ok, I'm hoping the 3 black dashes on the edge of the forewing near the tip at the end of the dotted black line are diagnostic. Think I'm happy with these as Lunar Underwings anyway.

Concur? Cheers.

JWNAndrews pic above the Beaded Chestnut appears to have a different jizz but presumably a smaller similarly marked individual would get trickier. I'm guessing flipping over to the underside in a pot and the 'lunar hindwing' markings should be visible without having to separate out the wings ...

Allen · Sep 22, 2020

20+ Lunar Underwings last night showing a lot of variability with a supporting cast of several Light Emerald, 2 x Black Rustics, Centre barred Sallow and Large YU, singles of Spruce Carpet, Pale Mottled Willow, Shuttle shaped Dart, half a Dusky Thorn (no idea where the other half was!!!!) and what seems to be a Delicate - thoughts appreciated. Also 1 unknown which might be too faded to ID

Paul Chapman · Sep 22, 2020

Allen said:
20+ Lunar Underwings last night showing a lot of variability with a supporting cast of several Light Emerald, 2 x Black Rustics, Centre barred Sallow and Large YU, singles of Spruce Carpet, Pale Mottled Willow, Shuttle shaped Dart, half a Dusky Thorn (no idea where the other half was!!!!) and what seems to be a Delicate - thoughts appreciated. Also 1 unknown which might be too faded to ID

Yes to Delicate & a very unseasonal Marbled Whitespot.

All the best

Allen · Sep 22, 2020

Thanks Paul for both

dantheman · Sep 22, 2020

Paul Chapman said:
Yes to Delicate & a very unseasonal Marbled Whitespot.

https://www.norfolkmoths.co.uk/index.php?bf=24100

Looking on Norfolkmoths there seems to be a very low number again in September, so perhaps occasionally a 2nd generation?

Nice one on the Delicate Allen.

Andy Adcock · Sep 23, 2020

I'm gonna move South................

September Moths (1 Viewer)

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