New Leica Scopes (2 Viewers)

tittletattler · Aug 18, 2008

Leica focus wheels: I loved both of them! Felt smooth and easy to use, especially the fine focus wheel.

Price: My mates were both shocked at the price of the scopes but then seconds later they saw no irony in the fact that they went on to discuss their £3000 'budget' trip to Cameroon......

I do appreciate Graham's comments: "just compare the complex stuff which goes into a camera for that price and then look at a scope -- a few bits of glass in a tube however it is dressed up is not that difficult to make surely".
I suppose that it's likely that Leica & Kowa & Nikon etc will sell more cameras than they will scopes. So, let's assume, wildly, that Leica spend £2,000,000 on producing a camera and then spend £1,000,000 on producing a telescope. Camera lenses will sell to people other than birders and I'm going to assume a ratio of 8:1.

So, lets assume that 8000 cameras sell for every 1000 telescopes. The cost of development then has to be recovered from each unit sold. So:

£2m / budgeted sales 8000 = £250 for the camera
£1m/ budgeted sales 1000 = £1,000 for the telescope

Assume all other costs are equal and work out to be £250 per unit. Add 30% for retail mark up:

So, the camera will sell for £650
The Telescope will sell for £1625

Of course, if they sell more than 1000 telescopes, then the price may come down as the full cost had already been absorbed into the first 1000 units.....

I would think that the same principle would apply to camera lenses: Canon 500mm for less than £4k anyone?

hampers · Aug 18, 2008

Good argument, you may be right. If the high unit cost is due to research and development they need to look how its apportioned across the retail units. Presumably they have done their budgeting and decided how many units they will sell at both ends of the scale and done their maths.Whichever way I bet the price doesn't come down unless they don't sell as well as expected and Leica subsidise it. Whatever we say its just conjecture, we don't know the breakdown of the price. It makes for very interesting posts - keep them coming. Thanks.

tittletattler · Aug 18, 2008

hampers said:
Good argument, you may be right. If the high unit cost is due to research and development they need to look how its apportioned across the retail units. Presumably they have done their budgeting and decided how many units they will sell at both ends of the scale and done their maths.Whichever way I bet the price doesn't come down unless they don't sell as well as expected and Leica subsidise it. Whatever we say its just conjecture, we don't know the breakdown of the price. It makes for very interesting posts - keep them coming. Thanks.

No worries. Of course I could be wrong and they could just be fleecing us after all!

Just checked my figures: Now I can see why I only just scraped a pass in Management Accounting with 50%......

PYRTLE · Aug 18, 2008

One has to please remember and consider that Leitz/Leica are and have been for many years at the forefront of designing and manufacturing the very best optics at the high spec. end of things and that I guess is where they are looking to be with the sports products they market and sell. The very early thoughts and comments posted here seem to indicate that the new APO 82 and zoom is very much a decent piece of kit, although the price is a bitter pill to taste, let alone swallow! In relation to GC's comment on the manufacturing cost of a camera against a spotting scope, should one take into account the warranty period as a measure of build confidence/quality? I'm not sure what it is on a £2.5k camera body (2 years, maybe 5?) against 10 years on the scope. Please let me know Graham, thank you.

Leica Camera have had to come up with a product as good as and even better than that offered by their counterparts and these new spotting scopes are a challenge to the others currently on the market. All they have to do is raise the game in other areas, such as consumer confidence - after sales - servicing etc. and they'll sell a few.

As an aside, all the well known top end "best sellers" in the binos division now offer a 10 year warranty in the UK, rather than 30 years or 'limited lifetime'.

Chris Galvin · Aug 18, 2008

Sleeper said:
Nobody else detect this? The fine wheel was silky smooth though.

/{QUOTE]

I noticed it and felt that the wheel grinded and was not a fluid motion. I also noticed whilst looking at one of the posts in the lagoon that it fringed yellow on the left side and blue on the right hand side.

I passed my findings onto the Product Development Manager at Leica Dr Gerald Dobler who has just jumped ship from Swarovski to Leica

Chris Galvin · Aug 18, 2008

PYRTLE said:
As an aside, all the well known top end "best sellers" in the binos division now offer a 10 year warranty in the UK.

Whereas Opticron still offer a comprehensive 30 year guarantee on most of the range including the new flagship binocular the Aurora BGA

PYRTLE · Aug 18, 2008

As I said Chris - the "best sellers" and most widely used at the top end of binos, (without meaning to sound snobbish). Although the AURORA BGA looks great and offers a classy view at half the price, its a very new piece of kit. What about camera warranties then, as your a photographer? Ta.

opticoholic · Aug 19, 2008

In January 2005 (doesn't seem like THAT long ago), I purchased the Leica Televid 62mm APO with 26Xww eyepiece from Eagle Optics for $1513 (and at the time I got a free Manfrotto tripod and head!). The new comparable Leica scope thru Eagle Optics is currently priced at $3195. Yes, the new price includes a more costly zoom eyepiece, but jeeze... That's more than a 100% jump in price. I'm sure the new Leica scopes are nice, but I feel like a genius for buying when I did. I've been very happy with my small Leica scope.

Sleeper · Aug 19, 2008

Chris Galvin said:
Sleeper said:

Nobody else detect this? The fine wheel was silky smooth though.

/{QUOTE]

I noticed it and felt that the wheel grinded and was not a fluid motion. I also noticed whilst looking at one of the posts in the lagoon that it fringed yellow on the left side and blue on the right hand side.

I passed my findings onto the Product Development Manager at Leica Dr Gerald Dobler who has just jumped ship from Swarovski to Leica

Click to expand...

Hi Chris
I am glad that not just my friend and I could detect these issues. I know it's been said about cost and things being right but after the initial wow factor of the scope was over these quirks began to stand out so much so that looking at the price my friend is down to two scopes non of which is the Leica which amazing since he had really set his heart on it. The focus was a real turn off for me and I would say that the fast focus wheel learched forward as I struggled to get it to go my way, although as I said the two scopes we tried suffered this in varying degrees.

I would recommend anyone to make sure you can live with this as it may come down to your preference rather than mine or anyones opinion...but the "issue is there".

ColonelBlimp · Aug 19, 2008

Whereas Opticron still offer a comprehensive 30 year guarantee on most of the range including the new flagship binocular the Aurora BGA

Excellent service, great products and comprehensive warranties-as soon as Opticron do an ED 42mm binocular I'll be straight down the shiops...

iporali · Aug 19, 2008

Sleeper said:
The focus was a real turn off for me and I would say that the fast focus wheel learched forward as I struggled to get it to go my way, although as I said the two scopes we tried suffered this in varying degrees.

Sleeper,

I wouldn't be too worried about it yet. They were surely preproduction samples, which are often known to have these kinds of "issues" - as well as changes in materials or even slight adjustments in component designs.

May I ask you, when you looked through the eyepiece, how easy was it to keep the eye correctly positioned? Many new eyepieces have such a large eyecup diameter that some people with closely spaced eyes can't easily find a comfortable position for their eye sockets and the nose. I know someone, who says he feels like a woodcock because he can't look straight ahead when looking through a Zeiss zoom

. I guess the new 25-50x zoom may be one of the largest eyepieces in this respect.

Best regards,

Ilkka

Sleeper · Aug 19, 2008

iporali said:
Sleeper,

I wouldn't be too worried about it yet. They were surely preproduction samples, which are often known to have these kinds of "issues" - as well as changes in materials or even slight adjustments in component designs.

May I ask you, when you looked through the eyepiece, how easy was it to keep the eye correctly positioned? Many new eyepieces have such a large eyecup diameter that some people with closely spaced eyes can't easily find a comfortable position for their eye sockets and the nose. I know someone, who says he feels like a woodcock because he can't look straight ahead when looking through a Zeiss zoom . I guess the new 25-50x zoom may be one of the largest eyepieces in this respect.

Best regards,

Ilkka

Hi Ilkka

I was hoping I could help you with this question as I read it as I have eyes close together and yes the eyepiece is large. Sadly I had to check out at this point as I wear glasses and maybe the wearing of the glasses negates this problem. Never thought of this problem which just shows how important to have your own trials with such equipment. I have to say that the grip on the eyepiece was superb and large enough to grip with a pr of gloves on. So much better than the Zeiss thin knurled zoom adjuster.

I hope you are correct in saying things will be altered in production. It seems odd that the best possible specimen would not be on show or is that to much a simplistic view?

iporali · Aug 19, 2008

Thank you Stephen,

Sleeper said:
Never thought of this problem which just shows how important to have your own trials with such equipment.

Exactly - I became aware of this possibility when I recommended the Zeiss (+zoom) to my friend. It was just an annoying incompatibility that was caused by a combination of closely spaced, deep-set eyes, glasses, slightly too short ER and a large eyepiece diameter (which together affects maybe <1% of people). He switched to a fixed 30x eyepiece, got 2-3mm more ER and has been happy ever since.

Looks like the Leica zoom has enough ER then. :t:

It seems odd that the best possible specimen would not be on show or is that to much a simplistic view?

Well, I would guess that they only have a very limited number of display samples, which may have been OK earlier, but some "unpolished edges" may have developed the problems in use. I am sure they would choose the best specimens if they knew what they were

.

Best regards,

Ilkka

Jaff · Aug 19, 2008

Don't forget these were the APO models at the Birdfair so there will be a difference in performance when the HD models come out to play but my god how much will they be!

You would have to be one seriously rich birder to afford the top end scopes now and I think it'll push more and more people towards the cheaper brands, Nikon and Opticron etc. which still deliver excellent performance.

stevetb · Aug 19, 2008

Jaff said:
Don't forget these were the APO models at the Birdfair so there will be a difference in performance when the HD models come out to play but my god how much will they be!

You would have to be one seriously rich birder to afford the top end scopes now and I think it'll push more and more people towards the cheaper brands, Nikon and Opticron etc. which still deliver excellent performance.

I agree Jaff. Before, I think people could just about justify spending top dollar on a scope, but now I think Leica have gone too far - as has been said, it is shocking just to look at, let alone pay. When in Norfolk at the weekend, I spoke to a few people who had been at the birdfair, and they all said a very similar thing - 'the view was stunning, but there is no way I am going to pay that much.'

ColonelBlimp · Aug 19, 2008

Especially with Leica's iffy customer service, I would not be happy at all carrying £3000's worth of scope around in the field. If it gets nicked or broken, that is a crippling amount of money to eat into.

At least for poor students like me...back to the Opticron...

josika · Aug 20, 2008

The APOs are the top model so the HDs should be less expensive.

Binocularface · Aug 20, 2008

I wonder if Leica have rectified the major issues with this new series? Afterall several people I know have had to send there scopes back to Leica on many occasions to have there lenses re-coated, also there seems to be issues with the build quality of some of the zoom lenses.

kristoffer · Aug 20, 2008

Binocularface said:
I wonder if Leica have rectified the major issues with this new series? Afterall several people I know have had to send there scopes back to Leica on many occasions to have there lenses re-coated, also there seems to be issues with the build quality of some of the zoom lenses.

And the whole scope breaking in two? Read a thread about that here on bf.

tittletattler · Aug 20, 2008

kristoffer said:
And the whole scope breaking in two? Read a thread about that here on bf.

I know of several instances where this has happened. I also rubbed the coating off of my Leica APO 62mm whilst trying to watch the Gyr in Cornwall in atrocious conditions.

'Luckily' some dirt bikers on Dartford Marsh gave me a kicking and smashed my optics so I had a big wad of cash sent to me by my insurance company.....

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