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kahles (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter gunut
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WJC
Well-known member
Kahles produced the FIRST rifle scopes ... they're very good at it.
The two binos shown below were made in the same plant in Japan. The major difference was in the price—$319 last I checked. The box said, "Made in Austria," which was true; the box WAS made there. Oh, what a tangled web .... Politics is not restricted to politicians. The other bino is a Celestron Noble. That is how the game is played and has been for years. That's why I'm so snotty about the "Alpha" concept. I just try to save people from themselves. And, so far I'm .0003% effective.:cat:
Bill
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even if it says, ...Made in Germany....made in Austria....made in Czechoslovakia....doesn't mean that some of the ..PARTS or..SUB ASSEMBLIES ...aren't made else ware....
You are right there Gunny and its not always because the bino brands are pulling a fast one on us. The numbers that European alpha binos are made in is piffling small compared with other products. I know for a fact that they have difficulty finding companies with computer controlled lathes who are interested in bothering to programme the lathes just to machine the tiny quantities of focus system components. They have to source these from the companies who are willing to do it and I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of these aren't in the same country as the one on the binos or on the side of the box.
Lee
WJC
Well-known member
even if it says, ...Made in Germany....made in Austria....made in Czechoslovakia....doesn't mean that some of the ..PARTS or..SUB ASSEMBLIES ...aren't made else ware....
Gunny:
This is why I’m only .0003% effective. So many folks are hell bent on standing behind dubious advertising and reluctant to believe anything they don’t WANT to believe. Years ago, on BF I made it known that Leupold DID NOT MAKE binoculars ... even the Gold Ring. Then someone insinuated that ASSEMBLED could mean the same thing. Having part of a product assemble in one country while most came from another would be very costly and would shift the responsibility of the warranty to the other country. And that would open another bucket of bickering and financial liabilities. :cat:
Boy, reality “bites.”
NDhunter
Experienced observer
You have a very good question. Kahles once sold their full line of
binoculars and rifle scopes in the US, until a few years ago.
I have owned the 8x42 binocular some years back. I currently own
2 of their riflescopes.
Right now they only sell 2 sizes of scopes in the US. various models
with a limited objective size of 24mm and 56mm. The smallest and
largest sizes commonly used.
The most common objective scope size is 42mm, just like binoculars.
They have had some changes with service over the past several years,
and now currently have Swarovski Optik, handle service in the US.
Kahles has had some relationships with Swarovski since many years
ago.
I don't know for sure, but I think that Swarovski has limited Kahles
offerings for sale in the US, to prevent some competition, as they
both handle very high end models.
Jerry
elkcub
Silicon Valley, California
I used to think that Jerry but the prices of the two brands don't overlap and I am no longer sure that anyone would be choosing between a Kahles and a Swaro if they had the money to pay for a Swaro. However I am not a hunter and Kahles has a great hunting heritage so I could be wrong.
Lee
NDhunter
Experienced observer
Lee:
With this strategy, Kahles has the high end in the US, with the 56mm models
priced at around $3,000.00. The Swaro. 56 models are priced less.
Swaro. has the midrange Z3 and Z5 models starting at $699. and complete
midrange sizes and quality covered.
Kahles has the 24mm model, and Swarovski does not.
Ed: Thanks for that history update, that explains it well.
Jerry
Gijs van Ginkel
Well-known member
For those who are interested: I have published a test of the Kahles Helia 8x42 (the beautiful brown one) compared with the Zeiss Conquest 8x42 on the WEB-site of House of Outdoor.
Gijs van Ginkel
Gijs van Ginkel
NDhunter
Experienced observer
Gijs:
Could you tell us the short version here, and hit the highlights of each ?
I cannot download your tests, and I would sure like to.
I am not able to translate.
Jerry
The Kahles Helia is actually a good example to demonstrate how the binocular markets work today.
Not only is it being made in Japan, it is - except for the nice brown armour, the shape of the diopter adjustment wheel and the accessories - identical with the Kite Ibis ED and the DDoptics EDX (I happen to have all three binos in my collection).
Not even the focus wheel was changed, internally the blackening and baffling of the tubes is identical, location of internal parts as far as visible is the same, and of course the specifications (e.g. FOV) are also the same.
Kite and DDoptics declare openly that their binos are being made in Japan (my assumption: by Kamakura). My older Kahles models (single hinge, 8x42 and 8x32) look like they were still made in Austria. Optically, however, the new Japan made Helia is clearly better
What I don‘t know: does Kahles still belong to the Swarovski group?
Canip
Not only is it being made in Japan, it is - except for the nice brown armour, the shape of the diopter adjustment wheel and the accessories - identical with the Kite Ibis ED and the DDoptics EDX (I happen to have all three binos in my collection).
Not even the focus wheel was changed, internally the blackening and baffling of the tubes is identical, location of internal parts as far as visible is the same, and of course the specifications (e.g. FOV) are also the same.
Kite and DDoptics declare openly that their binos are being made in Japan (my assumption: by Kamakura). My older Kahles models (single hinge, 8x42 and 8x32) look like they were still made in Austria. Optically, however, the new Japan made Helia is clearly better
What I don‘t know: does Kahles still belong to the Swarovski group?
Canip
WJC
Well-known member
I posted the photo of the Kahles and the Celestron side by side to graphically make a statement that could be made of several dozen other binoculars. However, regardless of the brand, it is still a world-class instrument worth every penny—even the more expensive. I just wanted to illustrate the value of comparison shopping. :cat:
Bill
I agree. I just wonder whether Swarovski, who acquired Kahles 20-30 years ago (??), still is the parent company, or whether sourcing in Japan by Kahles indicates that is not the case anymore (I am not aware that Swarovski itself is sourcing in Japan, but I may be naive). Does anybody know?
WJC
Well-known member
As far as I know, they are. However, I have been out of day to day contact with the industry for 10 years. :cat:
Bill
When Christian Wildner was appointed as Managing Director at Kahles in September 2015, the company statement of welcome came from Carina Schiestl-Swarovski. A Czech hunting site referred in June 2017 to Kahles being part of the Swarovski Group. This the most info I can find.
Lee
Lee
Gijs van Ginkel
Well-known member
What I know about Kahles is the following:
The company was founded in 1898 by Karl Robert Kahles in Vienna. He started making the famous Telorar rifle scope. He suddenly died and his wife Anna continued the company and it florished. When her sons Karl and Ernst were old enough they continued the company and it was son Karl Kahles who also started the production of binoculars for hunting and sport next to the production of rifle scopes. In the beginning of the 1970's there were no Kahles descendants who could continue the company and in 1974 the company was sold to Swarovski. From May 1989 Kahles limited is an independent company within the Swarovski group.
You can get an impression of the size of this group from the data I have published on the WEB-site of House of Outdoor in the power point presentation about the History and quality development of Swarovski Optik.
Swarovski Optik actually is a fairly small company in the Swarovski group if you compare it with the other companies like crystal and grinding materials.
I have investigated one Kahles model in comparison with the Zeiss Conquest and that is also published on the WEB-site of House of Outdoor, but since Jerry gets a headache by looking at Dutch data I will try to accomodate him here. For those who speculate about Swarovski using Japanese or Chinese companies for their binoculars: I have visited the company a number of times and I could not detect any foreign product, every step was made in house. So for me there is no doubt that everything is made and assembled in Absam with the exception of the housings probably since that requires specialised companies.
Some data:
Kahles Helia 8x42 HD:
Weight 738 g, FOV 126m/1000m, Close focus 1,7 m, diopter range +/-4 dioptrie, 1,1-1,2 rotations from close focus to infinity, transmission 81,8% at 500 nm, 85,8% at 550 nm, price (2016) 949 euro
Zeiss Conquest HD 8x42:
Weight 800 g, FOV 128 m/1000m, Close focus 2-2,5 m (varies for different instruments), diopter range +/-4 dioptrie, 1,1-1,2 rotations from close focus to infinity, transmission 87-89% at 500 nm, 90,5-92,2% at 550 nm, price (2016) 1115 euro
Comparison with the Kite Ibis 8x42 ED may be interesting, since that is also made by Kamakura and it looks similar to the Kahles:
Kite Ibis 8x42ED:
Weight 747 g, FOV 126 m/1000m, close focus 1,5 m; 1,6 rotations close focus to infinity, transmission 86% at 500nm and 90% at 550 nm, price 960 euro when I tested it, but that is some time ago.
Gijs van Ginkel
The company was founded in 1898 by Karl Robert Kahles in Vienna. He started making the famous Telorar rifle scope. He suddenly died and his wife Anna continued the company and it florished. When her sons Karl and Ernst were old enough they continued the company and it was son Karl Kahles who also started the production of binoculars for hunting and sport next to the production of rifle scopes. In the beginning of the 1970's there were no Kahles descendants who could continue the company and in 1974 the company was sold to Swarovski. From May 1989 Kahles limited is an independent company within the Swarovski group.
You can get an impression of the size of this group from the data I have published on the WEB-site of House of Outdoor in the power point presentation about the History and quality development of Swarovski Optik.
Swarovski Optik actually is a fairly small company in the Swarovski group if you compare it with the other companies like crystal and grinding materials.
I have investigated one Kahles model in comparison with the Zeiss Conquest and that is also published on the WEB-site of House of Outdoor, but since Jerry gets a headache by looking at Dutch data I will try to accomodate him here. For those who speculate about Swarovski using Japanese or Chinese companies for their binoculars: I have visited the company a number of times and I could not detect any foreign product, every step was made in house. So for me there is no doubt that everything is made and assembled in Absam with the exception of the housings probably since that requires specialised companies.
Some data:
Kahles Helia 8x42 HD:
Weight 738 g, FOV 126m/1000m, Close focus 1,7 m, diopter range +/-4 dioptrie, 1,1-1,2 rotations from close focus to infinity, transmission 81,8% at 500 nm, 85,8% at 550 nm, price (2016) 949 euro
Zeiss Conquest HD 8x42:
Weight 800 g, FOV 128 m/1000m, Close focus 2-2,5 m (varies for different instruments), diopter range +/-4 dioptrie, 1,1-1,2 rotations from close focus to infinity, transmission 87-89% at 500 nm, 90,5-92,2% at 550 nm, price (2016) 1115 euro
Comparison with the Kite Ibis 8x42 ED may be interesting, since that is also made by Kamakura and it looks similar to the Kahles:
Kite Ibis 8x42ED:
Weight 747 g, FOV 126 m/1000m, close focus 1,5 m; 1,6 rotations close focus to infinity, transmission 86% at 500nm and 90% at 550 nm, price 960 euro when I tested it, but that is some time ago.
Gijs van Ginkel
