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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Thursday 15th March 2018, 13:51   #676
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That might hold the secret to telepathy!

You medidate "loudly" and your DNA chains unite to build a large and powerful fractal antenna :P
Lol! Can I walk around going 'zzzzzzzzapp!!' at random people?

@ Jape, shame you took it down, cracked me up that (again!)
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Old Thursday 15th March 2018, 13:54   #677
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Lol! Can I walk around going 'zzzzzzzzapp!!' at random people?

@ Jape, shame you took it down, cracked me up that (again!)
i didnt mate, modded again without explanat
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Old Thursday 15th March 2018, 14:27   #678
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So now, scraping the barrel, she ropes in the atrocities of the Nazi era to try to suggest those developing cell phone technology are somewhere in the same league. Total fruitcake territory I think.
Godwin's Law

Or at least a subset thereof.
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Old Monday 19th March 2018, 18:37   #679
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Godwin's Law

Or at least a subset thereof.
Prophetic words Kevin, it appears we have indeed fulfilled Godwin's Law

Traditionally in many Internet discussion forums, it is the rule that once such a comparison is made, the discussion is effectively finished [...]
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

I'm going to miss y'all!

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Old Monday 19th March 2018, 18:48   #680
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Prophetic words Kevin, it appears we have indeed fulfilled Godwin's Law

Traditionally in many Internet discussion forums, it is the rule that once such a comparison is made, the discussion is effectively finished [...]
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
A predictable result of certain personality types being brought to bay, as PH has in this thread. . ..
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Old Monday 19th March 2018, 19:13   #681
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Oh well, at its core it's an interesting idea - shame it got hijacked, diluted, distorted... There may yet be something in the ROS generation theory, which would be interesting for my own work - so my thanks to PH for bringing that to my attention. And I'm curious to see what the Eklipse group made of it - nice initiative that, well worth the investment imo.

J
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 17:11   #682
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Einstein, What I Believe;
"It is not enough that you should understand about applied science in order that your work may increase man's blessings. Concern for man himself and his fate must always form the chief interest of all technical endeavors... that the creations of our mind shall be a blessing and not a curse to mankind. Never forget this in the midst of your diagrams and equations..."
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 17:25   #683
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No man is an Iland, intire of itselfe; every man
is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine;
if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe
is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as
well as if a Manor of thy friends or of thine
owne were; any mans death diminishes me,
because I am involved in Mankinde;
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

MEDITATION XVII
Devotions upon Emergent Occasions
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Old Thursday 22nd March 2018, 10:00   #684
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This report suggests pesticides are implicated in a sudden decline of some passerines in France:

https://www.thelocal.fr/20180320/fre...rd-populations

I've not looked at the detail but my gut feeling is that it's much more likely to be correct than the unproven theory of cell tower radiation.

Incidentally, now PH has left the building under a cloud of intemperate comments, I must commend her as a painter. Looking back through the thread, it's possible to find enough detail to Google her. There's something akin to Beryl Cook about her work.

Peter
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Old Friday 23rd March 2018, 09:22   #685
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This report suggests pesticides are implicated in a sudden decline of some passerines in France:

https://www.thelocal.fr/20180320/fre...rd-populations

Just this week SEO/Birdlife has sent a mailing about the decline of sparrows in urban areas. They link it mostly to the rehabilitation of old buildings causing a serious decline in available nesting places.

In the past I have heard the same about the decline in nesting swifts. Less availability of mud means less material for nest building.

Just today Slashdot (a sort of tech related news blog) mentions a long term Italian study on cell phone radiation on tumor susceptible (Sprague-Dawley) rats.

https://mobile.slashdot.org/story/18...ms-cancer-link

I haven't read it yet.
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Old Friday 23rd March 2018, 09:51   #686
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... google and the Guardian decided for some reason to link me to an old report that sperm count is down by 1/2 in western men. the evidence is slowly coming together but of what? while Diana is travelling off-grid for a detox it is up to us to keep an eye on all these things!
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Old Friday 23rd March 2018, 10:30   #687
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Just today Slashdot (a sort of tech related news blog) mentions a long term Italian study on cell phone radiation on tumor susceptible (Sprague-Dawley) rats.

https://mobile.slashdot.org/story/18...ms-cancer-link

I haven't read it yet.
I've only skimmed it but it looks solid from an experimental perspective, and they have the numbers to find significant differences and look for dose responses.

So having a look at the published numbers in the PDF:
Figure 3 shows there is zero effect on water & food consumption, mean body weight or survival index in either male or female rats.
Tables 2 and 3 show that they found low rates of cancer, typically 1% or less across all groups, including the non-exposed controls. Thus, the measured effect was not exclusive to exposed groups but occurs 'naturally' as well. This is important because it means we are now looking at the radiation causing increased incidence of naturally occurring cancers. Unless there is a specific exposure threshold, you'd then expect a dose response (i.e. increased exposure leads to increased incidence of cancer).
There is none in the data.
In fact, cancer incidence numbers are very low across the board and there is no clear pattern. The only significant value the authors found was in one group (total schwannoma in male rats in the highest dose group versus null exposure). To put that into perspective there were 3 positives from a total of 207 male rats in the high exposure group. I should also point out that no p-value correction for multiple comparisons was done.

So actually, this study shows pretty convincingly that there is no significant effect. I'm therefore frankly surprised with the authors' concluding statement that "These experimental studies provide sufficient evidence to call for the re-evaluation of IARC conclusions regarding the carcinogenic potential of RFR in humans.".
But then, perhaps I shouldn't be surprised because the same institute was responsible for the claim that sweeteners cause leukemia....(https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevorb.../#783f1f752e71)

Thanks for posting Borja!

Cheers,
Joost
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Old Friday 23rd March 2018, 11:13   #688
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P.S. I ran the data through a JT-test for ordered alternatives (https://statistics.laerd.com/spss-tu...statistics.php) to see if there were any significant trends (i.e. a dose response when comparing each group to the null):

Schwann cells hyperplasia: p=1.000
Total Schwannoma: p=1.000
Benign Tumors Meninges: p=0.497
Malignant Tumors Meninges: p=0.174
Glial cells hyperplasia: p=0.718
Malignant Tumors Glia: p=0.497

So a resounding "nope".

Interestingly, for the outcomes with the lowest p-value (malignant tumors meninges) the sign was actually negative....indicating a high dose could be beneficial

J
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Old Friday 23rd March 2018, 11:19   #689
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Interestingly, for the outcomes with the lowest p-value (malignant tumors meninges) the sign was actually negative....indicating a high dose could be beneficial
Jos goes out to buy two additional mobile phones
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Old Friday 23rd March 2018, 14:00   #690
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Interestingly, the same group has just put another paper out in the same journal (https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...1393511830104X).

The abstract:

Background
Up to now, experimental studies on rodents have failed to provide definitive confirmation of the carcinogenicity of extremely low frequency electromagnetic fields (ELFEMF). Two recent studies performed in our laboratory on Sprague-Dawley rats reported a statistically significant increase in malignant tumors of different sites (mammary gland, C-cells carcinoma, hemolymphoreticular neoplasia, and malignant heart Schwannoma) when ELFEMF exposure was associated with exposure to formaldehyde (50 mg/l) or acute low dose of γ-radiation (0.1 Gy) (Soffritti et al., 2016a) (Soffritti et al., 2016b). The same doses of known carcinogenic agents (50 mg/l formaldehyde, or acute 0.1 Gy γ-radiation), when administered alone, previously failed to induce any statistically significant increase in the incidence of total and specific malignant tumors in rats of the same colony.

Objectives
A lifespan whole-body exposure study was conducted to evaluate the possible carcinogenic effects of ELFEMF exposure administered alone to Sprague-Dawley rats, as part of the integrated project of the Ramazzini Institute (RI) for studying the effects on health of ELFEMF alone or in combination with other known carcinogens.

Methods
Male and female Sprague-Dawley rats were exposed 19 h/day to continuous sinusoidal-50 Hz magnetic fields (S-50 Hz MF) at flux densities of 0 (control group), 2, 20, 100 or 1000T, and to intermittent (30 min on/30 min off) S-50 Hz MF at 1000 T, from prenatal life until natural death.

Results
Survival and body weight trends in all groups of rats exposed to ELFEMF were comparable to those found in sex-matched controls. The incidence and number of malignant and benign tumors was similar in all groups. Magnetic field exposure did not significantly increase the incidence of neoplasias in any organ, including those sites that have been identified as possible targets in epidemiological studies (leukemia, breast cancer, and brain cancer).

Conclusions
Life-span exposures to continuous and intermittent sinusoidal-50 Hz ELFEMFs, when administered alone, did not represent a significant risk factor for neoplastic development in our experimental rat model. In light of our previous results on the carcinogenic effects of ELFEMF in combination with formaldehyde and γ-radiation, further experiments are necessary to elucidate the possible role of ELFEMF as cancer enhancer in presence of other chemical and physical carcinogens.


Combining EMF with other known carcinogens to elicit an effect is really clutching at straws.
Can we just put this to bed now?

Joost
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Old Saturday 31st March 2018, 17:44   #691
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Prophetic words Kevin, it appears we have indeed fulfilled Godwin's Law

Traditionally in many Internet discussion forums, it is the rule that once such a comparison is made, the discussion is effectively finished [...]
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

I'm going to miss y'all!
You brought some great scientific rational-ness to the discussion which made it more interesting to read this thread (I had abandoned it for a long while). Glad you stuck it out because I enjoyed reading your detailed replies!
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Old Saturday 31st March 2018, 18:31   #692
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You brought some great scientific rational-ness to the discussion which made it more interesting to read this thread (I had abandoned it for a long while). Glad you stuck it out because I enjoyed reading your detailed replies!
BIG DITTO
Thanks Joost
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Old Sunday 1st April 2018, 05:47   #693
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P.S. I ran the data through a JT-test for ordered alternatives (https://statistics.laerd.com/spss-tu...statistics.php) to see if there were any significant trends (i.e. a dose response when comparing each group to the null):

Schwann cells hyperplasia: p=1.000
Total Schwannoma: p=1.000
Benign Tumors Meninges: p=0.497
Malignant Tumors Meninges: p=0.174
Glial cells hyperplasia: p=0.718
Malignant Tumors Glia: p=0.497

So a resounding "nope".

Interestingly, for the outcomes with the lowest p-value (malignant tumors meninges) the sign was actually negative....indicating a high dose could be beneficial

J
How can a p-value be negative, since it's a number between 0 and 1?

Something isn't right.

Ed
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Old Monday 2nd April 2018, 19:30   #694
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Interestingly, the same group has just put another paper out in the same journal (https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...1393511830104X).
..........
Conclusions
Life-span exposures to continuous and intermittent sinusoidal-50 Hz ELFEMFs, when administered alone, did not represent a significant risk factor for neoplastic development in our experimental rat model. In light of our previous results on the carcinogenic effects of ELFEMF in combination with formaldehyde and γ-radiation, further experiments are necessary to elucidate the possible role of ELFEMF as cancer enhancer in presence of other chemical and physical carcinogens.[/i]

Combining EMF with other known carcinogens to elicit an effect is really clutching at straws.
Can we just put this to bed now?

Joost
Not so!! The prospect of discovering significant interaction effects (positive or negative) with known carcinogens could lead to important new insights. Scientific thought often involves 'clutching at straws' and resisting the urge to 'throw the babies out with the bathwater.'

Ed
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Old Tuesday 3rd April 2018, 13:21   #695
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Not so!! The prospect of discovering significant interaction effects (positive or negative) with known carcinogens could lead to important new insights. Scientific thought often involves 'clutching at straws' and resisting the urge to 'throw the babies out with the bathwater.'
I'm not sure if this is analagous to Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD)? Which is to say, it's not one single issue with bees but a sum total of alot of "little" things?
"The current scientific consensus is that no single factor is causing CCD, but that some of these factors in combination may lead to CCD either additively or synergistically."
Now this might fit better with Purple Heron's suspicions, because it could better explain why there is such a problem in one place and not in another: additive or synergistic effects.

But it would be back to the same problem of proof: someone needs some insight as to what two-or-more causes could be and then prove it. Additive/synergistic effects are incredibly annoying and difficult to track down. They are tough enough in technological systems, much less biological.
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Old Wednesday 4th April 2018, 04:20   #696
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I'm not sure if this is analagous to Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD)? Which is to say, it's not one single issue with bees but a sum total of alot of "little" things?
"The current scientific consensus is that no single factor is causing CCD, but that some of these factors in combination may lead to CCD either additively or synergistically."
Now this might fit better with Purple Heron's suspicions, because it could better explain why there is such a problem in one place and not in another: additive or synergistic effects.

But it would be back to the same problem of proof: someone needs some insight as to what two-or-more causes could be and then prove it. Additive/synergistic effects are incredibly annoying and difficult to track down. They are tough enough in technological systems, much less biological.
Hi Calvin,

Yup, couldn't agree more. But, then again, nobody said it would be easy.

Ed
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Old Thursday 5th April 2018, 19:52   #697
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How can a p-value be negative, since it's a number between 0 and 1?

Something isn't right.

Ed
Ed, come on, I was referring to the sign of the trend, not the p-value. If you want to learn more about the Jonckheere-Terpstra test please follow the link in my post. It's useful for testing the significance of trends in ranked data, for example dose responses in drug testing with multiple experimental groups sorted along a concentration or intensity axis.
But the whole comment was made in jest of course, as none of the trends were significant (the original point of my post).

If you want to discuss the Ramazzini Institute series of studies then why not give us all some feedback on the two Soffritti et al papers from 2016?

Cheers,
Joost
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Old Saturday 7th April 2018, 21:01   #698
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Response to #697

So, instead of saying:
Quote:
...Interestingly, for the outcomes with the lowest p-value (malignant tumors meninges) the sign was actually negative....indicating a high dose could be beneficial
you meant to say: "... the sign [of the trend line] was actually negative..."

I'm a pretty serious guy when it comes to applied statistics, so pardon me if I didn't find it 'interesting' at all, but rather misleading, particularly for those without a stat background. The world is confused enough. If the effect was not statistically significant, then the sign of the trend line is strictly irrelevant and there is certainly no implication that the radiation was beneficial.

Incidentally, I did come across one or two studies that reported beneficial interaction effects for this kind of radiation, but I didn't make a record of them.

Regards,
Ed

PS. Thanks for the offer, but I'm familiar with these non-parametric methods and SPSS is my weapon of choice.
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Old Sunday 8th April 2018, 07:13   #699
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I'm a pretty serious guy when it comes to applied statistics, so pardon me if I didn't find it 'interesting' at all, but rather misleading, particularly for those without a stat background. The world is confused enough. If the effect was not statistically significant, then the sign of the trend line is strictly irrelevant and there is certainly no implication that the radiation was beneficial.
...at least Jos got my little joke
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Old Friday 18th May 2018, 19:44   #700
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Kicking this old thread only because I thought the minds here would enjoy this guy running for U.S. Senator for the State of California because he is basing his entire campaign on the premise that 5G is harmful. I'd love to see what the smart minds here make of his proof (or maybe it's the same stuff Purple Heron was using?).

http://kevinforsenate2018.com/ (look at the "Evidence of Harm" menu items).

After reading the discussion here, this guy was immediately off my list of "under consideration" in a hurry. Well, and I dislike one-schtick candidates with no depth.
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