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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 06:38   #1276
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Here's the current situation for Diego Garcia: "...As of August 2018, Diego Garcia is the only inhabited island of the BIOT (Brit. Indian Ocean Territory); the population is composed of military personnel and supporting contractors. It is one of two critical US bases in the Asia Pacific region, along with Andersen Air Force Base, Guam, Pacific Ocean." There are about 4000 people living there, and the scuttlebutt as of 2014 was that there's no cell phone service. This doesn't seem to be the ideal place to look for EMR effects on wildlife, IMO, or a rush to install 5G.
But there are extensive communication and radar systems operating at high power levels across the radio spectrum and, of course, especially in the case of radars, pulsed. Which is "worse".

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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 11:02   #1277
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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 12:35   #1278
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@ Chosun I maintain that sciatica is not an illness, although it causes pain, discomfort, depression, etc. despite the dictionary definition that you give above. You have to be injured in some way to get sciatica; it is not something you contract (from bacterium or a virus) nor has it to do with malfunction of body processes. Incidentally, have you tried turmeric, which is an excellent natural anti-inflammatory, for your disc problem? It was recommended to me a couple of years back and has worked wonders for me and other people I know. Unpleasant taste but zero side-effects. If you are interested I'll tell you how to make it up.

I am quite sure that there are other problems besides EMR affecting birds; I have never disputed that, and loss of riparian forest (or any forest) is a major issue. The focus of this thread, however, is the effect of EMR. To say that EMR harms bird populations takes nothing away from the other problems which affect birds, but it does mean that birds have to deal with another, quite unnecessary, pollutant. EMR is pollution, so if you add that to pesticides, industrial pollution, and habitat degradation, etc. you are going to make everything that much worse.

I'm sorry you can't be bothered to look up references you are apparently interested in, or to read the many studies posted on this thread, but at the end of the day it is up to you to do these things if you want to make an informed assessment of the threat EMR poses to wildlife and people. Some pieces have even been posted several times. I don't see how we can have a meaningful discussion, though, if you won't read stuff. That said, I hope you will have a look at my next post, which I'm going to do separately in order to attach a paper.

@ Ed, Borjam It looks as if the Diego Garcia bird reserve is in an isolated area, and since it is protected, most likely they are not aiming radar etc. at it deliberately. I don't see how it's possible to come to any real conclusions about it, though. We are primarily discussing the effects of EMR from wireless mass communications, which does not seem to be an issue on Diego Garcia. What will be an issue is if they beam 5G from space, which is the only way mass 5G is going to work, the on-the-ground infrastructure being so expensive to install. 5G from satellites is intended to cover absolutely every inch of the planet's surface, so if it's a disaster for wildlife the consequences are too dreadful to contemplate.
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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 13:05   #1279
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@ Chosun, all

The attached paper by Andrew Goldsworthy looks at the biological affects of EMR in plain, easy-to-understand language. It explains why, as in the title of the article I posted several days ago, "antenna sickness is everywhere now".

The thing about EMR from cell towers, Wi-Fi and devices is that it affects the body in so many ways, from glands and the endocrine system to brain function. If you truly are unaffected, you are lucky. That doesn't mean you will remain unaffected, or that people you care about won't be affected. I can assure you that it is just as dreadful to have someone you love get sick as it is to get sick yourself.

Chosun mentioned how fat Americans are these days--which he attributes to dreadful food. People are becoming obese just about everywhere, and the problem is more likely to be EMR than food. Goldsworthy says in the abstract, "Damage to the thyroid gland from living with 100 metres of a cell phone base station caused (I think this is a typo and should read "causes") hypothyroidism and may be responsible for the current outbreak of obesity and chronic fatigue." This is explained further on page 7 under the heading "Electromagnetic effects on the endocrine system and obesity".

If 5G comes in, more people than not are going to have a so-called "small cell" right near their homes. It might be outside your bedroom window, in your yard, or a couple of doors down. That will be in addition to Wi-Fi in homes, smart meters, smart appliances, and the other wireless infrastructure that will all stay in place. A few people might not be affected. But most people will be affected sooner or later. Then what?
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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 16:10   #1280
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@Diana,

The body not working normally is clearly an illness. Being in pain, or being physically dysfunctional, or even wanting to kill yourself is not normal. You can't just ignore the common dictionary definitions that glue our society together with a common fixed source of 'sense-making' just because it doesn't suit you!

As I said in a previous post, there are other medical effects from the variety and different levels of the causes of sciatica.

I already eat a rainbow diet (increasingly organic to combat the industrial machine's penchant for sticking everything in a storage chiller for 9 months to later emerge into supermarkets tasteless and most likely nutritionless as well) precisely to create health and address a number of issues .... I will look into tumeric - though I'm not a fan of curry in a hurry! :)

This from the - Harvard Women's Health Watch:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/stayi...t-inflammation

Any posts I make to BF are likely typed out on my 4G smartphone as I lie down in the spine neutral position for 15mins of precious semi-free time a day. I posted the reports of birds around my house just as an observation to add to your global data sets.

Similarly I posted and linked to the water bird study FYI precisely because it provides proof positive of other factors at play which were professionally measured over the past 3 decades over an area that amounts to the size of France and Germany combined. I thought you might appreciate the data.

There are many other causes which are additive - is EMR one of them - who knows? Plenty of folk here have posted of their observations to the contrary. Only well designed peer reviewed studies will tell. I wonder if you have heard of the recent phenomenon of urban peregrines? More grist for your mill ......

I already stated that I don't have large blocks of time to go through papers in detail, bothered or not, - you'll just have to accept my apologies for that for the moment. I sure as heck won't be wasting time chasing down references if they're not at least presented in a bibliography though - even Wiki can manage that (linked to boot) --- that article was in a 'death spiral' to borrow its vernacular. ....

Just one other thing re: the diet and obesity thing .....
You cannot just come out and make a blanket statement about EMR playing a greater role than food! This ignores the vast body of research on the subject . You might as well take the word 'credibility' , write it on a bit of paper, scew it up, and set fire to it!

I'm saying this by way of helpful advice, as I'm sure such statements leave plenty here shaking their heads .....

You might try looking up Glycemic Index, the Hormones Grehlin and Leptin, and the Gut Biome, as well as the basics of Ketosis, Calories in vs Calories out, and the actual nutritional content of modern food vs just the calories (increasingly empty) they contain, etc ....... there are plenty of unhealthy, fat people in the world that live outside of 100m from a cell tower!

I continue to wish you well in ferreting out the EMR information - I do have interest in it. I'd advise to 'stick to the knitting' .... I've flicked though papers questioning the very business case viability of some of 5G myself, but didn't post it here since the waters were muddy enough

Good luck :)

btw - I just heard the first Channel-billed Cuckoo for the (summer) flying around and calling at 2am !



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Old Saturday 15th September 2018, 02:40   #1281
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Old Saturday 15th September 2018, 04:39   #1282
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The best part about it is that if something goes catastrophically wrong, they just turn you off and then back on again - and you're good to go :)
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Old Saturday 15th September 2018, 04:45   #1283
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Originally Posted by fugl View Post
Beyond the marketing hype - perhaps this is more like the reality?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=32lGi8boBC8



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Old Saturday 15th September 2018, 05:02   #1284
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Anyone that has ever been sunburnt, can tell us EMR hurts.


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Yes, 4G bandwidth isn't efficiently utilized now.
Smartphones are engineered and deployed to effectively and perpetually spy on owners, all in the name of advertising.
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Old Saturday 15th September 2018, 06:00   #1285
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Anyone that has ever been sunburnt, can tell us EMR hurts.
Maybe we'll all end up as black fellas !?!

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Originally Posted by Bird_Bill View Post
Yes, 4G bandwidth isn't efficiently utilized now.
Smartphones are engineered and deployed to effectively and perpetually spy on owners, all in the name of advertising.
I can vouch for this through several personal examples.

I have a friend who is a lead performer in the Australian leg of an International Musical. It would have been over a year since I looked at any bio's, trailers, related social media etc.

I met someone and the topic of creativity/artistry/performers came up in conversation - so I mentioned my friend and his upcoming tour dates/city ...... and get this - my phone was inactive at the time!

After leaving about half an hour later, I switched my phone back on, and within the first 5 min of Internet browsing there was an ad for the exact show my friend was starring in !!!!!!!!!

"Spying on" is too innocuous a term by half

P.S. "Tab crashed" when I was posting this ...... coincidence !????


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Old Saturday 15th September 2018, 10:54   #1286
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@ Chosun We needn't quarrel over the definition of illness; I know from bitter experience how horrible disc pain is, and have been following the dietary advice on the Harvard link for years. In fact I went vegetarian over 25 years ago because I was developing arthritis in my 30's and read an article (in the supermarket queue) saying that a study had shown taking meat (but not oily fish) out of your diet helped arthritis and thought I'd try it. It worked; I don't have arthritis now. Do try turmeric. Don't worry about the taste--it's short-lived, while the relief is amazing. I have a friend who controls her rheumatoid arthritis with it, after years of taking heavier and heavier meds with worse and worse side effects; she's been doing it for years and has never looked back. It's helped a lot of people I know. Walking has helped me as well, even when the pain is intense, and barefoot walking is even better. You could try turning your Wi-Fi off for a couple of weeks, as well, if you have it.

I don't think I ever suggested that EMR is the only problem leading to bird declines, but I will maintain to my dying breath that it is a factor, I believe a major factor. Where I live, and it's the only change in the environment, rather suggests that other factors are not responsible, at least here, for the sudden and rapid decline of so many species, including resident species. My alarm over this prompted this thread; I'm not a social media person and don't do this for amusement.

As for EMR and thyroid/weight gain--I do hope you looked at page 7 of Goldsworthy. My husband and I had the misfortune to rent a flat less than a hundred meters from a cell tower some years ago. We were not aware of the dangers, the cell tower was hidden by trees so we didn't see it or ever think about it (this was back in 2G days and there weren't many of them). Within a year, I become quite severely hypothyroid and he developed quite bad asthma, while the dogs were afflicted with an endless series of skin problems. I gained weight, despite vigorous walking 3 hours a day, a good diet, and long, energetic swims (two miles a day) in summer. When I eventually worked out that I had a thyroid problem, I found that the gland was covered in cysts. It is under control now, but of course I will always be dependent on artificial thyroid hormone, without which I will die. Similarly, my husband will always have asthma to some degree, though he is better now than he was then. The dogs recovered when we moved. We had always wondered what caused our problems, but it was not until quite recently that we remembered that cell tower, and I would never have known about the health effects of EMR had I not become concerned about the birds. There is still very little public discussion of this issue, and the media keeps running industry hype of the sort fugl posted above. Nevertheless, people are getting sick, and I really wish I had known then what I know now. When 5G comes in, and people have what is in effect a miniature cell tower outside their houses, how many people will get sick them? And with public Wi-Fi, and Wi-Fi in virtually every home, I am not at all surprised that people are becoming increasingly fat, and sick. At least now we know enough to avoid constant exposure, though it does tend to limit one's social options in a cafe society.

The sort of spying that you and Bird Bill are talking about would alarm me; glad I don't own a smartphone (or a cellphone).

I am glad to see that there is some pushback against 5G deployment, at least in California (in the EU they are shoving it down everyone's throats, willy-nilly). See https://smartcitiesdive.com/news/may...roposal/532246
and https://www.emfacts.com/2018/09/cali...g-deployments/

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Old Saturday 15th September 2018, 14:10   #1287
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Ivory billed woodpeckers didn't disapeer because of EMR.
Cerulean and Prontontary warbler populations aren't dimenishinng because of smartphones.
Panda bears and tigers are not dying off because of cell towers close by them.
All assaulted by habitat destruction. That encroachment is the most deadly of all.

Tiny fireflies...they hypnotize us as kids.
They're biolumenescent, in essence mimicing the sun.
The EMR fireflies emit is at such a low level they don't self heat.
The energy required to produce the glow is immense...Our metabolisms aren't evolved to eat that much.
I work in an industry closely related to cell towers, and what powers them. EMR is on our minds too. Frankly, the emitted power levels are extremely low. I know individuals that have worked in close proximity to live transmitters for years, and suffered no ill effect.

The country on top of research, development, and deployment of newer cell technology stands to make billions of dollars. I feel that the drive towards that profit is our greatest hazard. Not humanity alone, either. All life, that needs its own place in the sun, so to speak. At times I wonder about these arguments, and if they aren't part of some sublime political advertising.
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Old Saturday 15th September 2018, 23:55   #1288
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Ivory billed woodpeckers didn't disapeer because of EMR.
Cerulean and Prontontary warbler populations aren't dimenishinng because of smartphones.
Panda bears and tigers are not dying off because of cell towers close by them.
All assaulted by habitat destruction. That encroachment is the most deadly of all.
Indeed, the master evil, besides which all others pale, is unchecked population growth which will only stabilize when everyone in the world has attained a “western” standard of living (i. e., barring some catastrophe such as nuclear war, economic collapse, uncontroled climate change etc). Until then the environmental carnage will continue at an ever accelerating rate: pollution of lakes and rivers and oceans, destruction of rainforests, encroachments on the wild by growing human populations everywhere.
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Old Sunday 16th September 2018, 12:41   #1289
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@ Bird Bill, fugl Once again, I have never said, and am not saying now, that EMR is the only problem that the natural world faces, nor am I saying that other problems, such as encroachment by man, draining of wetlands, pesticides etc. are not serious, because they most certainly are. I am saying that EMR is also a factor; that EMR is a pollutant like any other pollutant and that it is having serious consequences for birds and other living creatures including us. If you erect cell towers all over the place, you are introducing a form of pollution--electrical pollution--into that habitat, and it would be insane not to expect it to have effects on the creatures and plants that live there.

Bill, you are confusing power levels with frequencies. It is the EMR frequencies that cause oxidative stress, DNA damage, sterility etc., and they have been proved to do so at levels far below what the regulatory bodies consider to be "safe." So it does not matter a whit that the power levels are low and that there is no thermal effect from non-ionizing radiation. EMR causes oxidative stress at non-thermal levels, and I have attached a great many studies and papers demonstrating this; also Elkcub Ed has attached a number of excellent papers which also prove this.

If you work in the industry and have not encountered any of this research, you should read it. You could start with the Golumb paper I attached a few days ago, if for no other reason because it is probably the easiest to find. Golumb, who has a physics degree, an M.D. and a Ph.D., points out that the mechanism of harm for non-ionizing radiation is exactly the same mechanism as for ionizing radiation: they both cause oxidative stress. Anything, therefore, which emits non-ionizing radiation (a cell tower, a booster mast, a Wi-Fi hotspot, car radar, any wireless device) is going to cause oxidative stress in the cells of any living creature nearby--regardless of power levels.

You have to realize that introducing man-made EMR into any environment IS habitat destruction of the worst kind. And that is on top of all the other dreadful things man is doing to nature. EMR didn't kill the dodo, that's for sure. But EMR is killing a great many other creatures in the world today, and the situation is only going to get worse. I will be happy to discuss the posted research papers with you when you have read them, but until you have done so I can only say that you are starting from a false premise.

fugl, if the biggest problem as you see it is unchecked population growth and everyone wanting a "western" standard of living, may I ask you what you are willing to give up in order to attain sustainability on this planet? Is it not possible that everyone is going to have to make do with a great deal less in order to achieve this? And how are you going to do it if everyone must have the latest smartphone, the latest app, the latest model of car and all the rest? Wireless technology makes huge demands on energy; it creates tons and tons of plastic waste and toxic e-waste, but you don't want to give that up; in fact you want everyone to have it. So go on, prove to me that you aren't a total hypocrite. What do you think the world should scale back on?
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Old Sunday 16th September 2018, 14:15   #1290
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fugl, if the biggest problem as you see it is unchecked population growth and everyone wanting a "western" standard of living, may I ask you what you are willing to give up in order to attain sustainability on this planet? Is it not possible that everyone is going to have to make do with a great deal less in order to achieve this? And how are you going to do it if everyone must have the latest smartphone, the latest app, the latest model of car and all the rest? Wireless technology makes huge demands on energy; it creates tons and tons of plastic waste and toxic e-waste, but you don't want to give that up; in fact you want everyone to have it. So go on, prove to me that you aren't a total hypocrite. What do you think the world should scale back on?
Tut, tut, I’ve simply described my take on the reality of the situation not what I “want” to happen. You need to get a grip. . ..
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Old Tuesday 18th September 2018, 10:59   #1291
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Sooooo, I sat inside an MRI machine today with it banging away bombarding me with all sorts of EMF for about an hour ...... am I stuffed?
Have I just taken the equivalent of 5 million phone calls?
https://www.nibib.nih.gov/science-ed...ce-imaging-mri



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Old Thursday 20th September 2018, 13:39   #1292
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@ all I've been offline several days because my landline had a problem, which is now fixed. The good news, according to the young man who showed up to fix it, is that the islands are not going to get 5G because the terrain is too difficult. Even people who work in telecoms are starting to get a bit worried about wireless technology.

Of course, everywhere will get 5G if they start beaming it down from satellites, and in that case the entire globe is going to be affected as there won't be a single square inch of the planet that isn't irradiated. Plus there will be all that junk floating around space. Here on Samos we have seen two bits of space junk that made it through to the upper(?) atmosphere (I guess, maybe they were even closer), and both times (the latter just a few days ago) were terrifying: the whole sky, and the earth below, lit up with these huge flaming objects with a comet-like tail of green, yellow and red. The first one, several years ago, looked as if it was going to land right on top of us, though of course it didn't. Still, the thought of 20,000+ satellites spinning around up there, beaming 5G frequencies down at us all the time, is not a pleasant one. Nor is the prospect that this may be the last thing man may ever do. 5G doesn't have to kill us directly. If it kills the insects, we are finished. And those millimeter waves are the perfect size to fit an insect's body, as a study I posted earlier on this thread shows.

There us a new appeal against 5G, this one specifically against 5G from space. As with the appeal to the EU for a moratorium on 5G, this one also asks that you be a Ph.D. or an M.D. to sign it. To read the appeal, go to www.5gspaceappeal.org/the-appeal
and to sign the appeal, go to www.5gspaceappeal.org/sign-individual
(or, if any organization wishes to sign it, www.5gspaceappeal.org/sign-organization)
I earnestly hope that those of you who have the qualifications to sign the appeal will do so.

I came across an interesting web page at www.emfwise.com/myth.php
This discusses many of the common myths and misconceptions about EMR, a good number of which have been raised, some repeatedly, on this thread. These include the misconception that there is no consistent evidence that EMR is harmful, that only ionizing radiation and thermal levels of microwaves can cause damage, that cell towers and Wi-Fi are too weak to harm us because the radiation they emit is below international safety standards, that TV and radio towers, which we have had for years, have been safe, and many more. If you have raised any of these arguments, or any others, I suggest you look at this page.

I am aware that many of you who read this thread are not convinced that EMR is dangerous to us or to nature, bu there is growing concern internationally. The biggest focus of concern for many is the effects of EMR on children. Some countries, like France and Cyprus, are starting to ban wireless technology in schools, and many parents are starting to get very worried about children's exposure to radiation. You can see this in the following YouTube video, where parents in Dartington, South Devon, are threatening to take children out of a school because the local council wants to erect a cell tower nearby. That's at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5BEuVUugjs
Also, many new anti-wireless groups are forming, such as Americans for Responsible Technology, which has just put out this extremely powerful 1 and 1/2 minute video on YouTube asking for people to call their representatives to protest 5G rollout. That's at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXS218qE37c
And in Australia, a group successfully stopped the erection of a cell tower in an ecologically sensitive area. What really seemed to decide the case was when the coroner directing the proceedings asked the Telestra (telecoms) representative to assure the council that microwave radiation was safe. Telestra tried to deflect the question to ARPANSA (the Australian standards-setting body) and waffled till the local mayor interrupted him, saying he could have answered the question with one word and that his "answer is clear to the council". For more information on this go to www.ecfsr.com.au and look at the pop-up box that says "We did it!

In spite of all the above, I know many of you will still be thinking that there is doubt whether EMR is unsafe for us or nature. The telecoms companies deliberately foster that doubt, and will continue to do so, on the premise that they can keep selling their products, and erecting cell towers, till some major body like the WHO/IARC definitively announces that EMR is not safe. The problem with this approach is obvious, because where there is doubt, there should be precaution in case of danger. Where there is doubt, it is foolhardy in the extreme to court catastrophe on an epic scale, yet that is exactly what we are doing. Why?

@ Chosun I wish you a speedy recovery.
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Old Thursday 20th September 2018, 16:52   #1293
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Of course, everywhere will get 5G if they start beaming it down from satellites, and in that case the entire globe is going to be affected as there won't be a single square inch of the planet that isn't irradiated. Plus there will be all that junk floating around space. Here on Samos we have seen two bits of space junk that made it through to the upper(?) atmosphere (I guess, maybe they were even closer), and both times (the latter just a few days ago) were terrifying: the whole sky, and the earth below, lit up with these huge flaming objects with a comet-like tail of green, yellow and red. The first one, several years ago, looked as if it was going to land right on top of us, though of course it didn't. Still, the thought of 20,000+ satellites spinning around up there, beaming 5G frequencies down at us all the time, is not a pleasant one. Nor is the prospect that this may be the last thing man may ever do. 5G doesn't have to kill us directly. If it kills the insects, we are finished. And those millimeter waves are the perfect size to fit an insect's body, as a study I posted earlier on this thread shows.
@Diana: I think you need a hat. A tin foil one to reflect the EMR with some bubble wrap inside to protect you from falling space crafts. You could perhaps design a cover (a tea cosy might do instead though).

And I thought an EMR-proof hat was just such a crazy idea, so I Googled it (just for fun). This came up:

http://shieldheadwear.com/

Isn't it amazing what you can find? Real clothing to protect you from EMR signals. Not just EMR-proof hats and EMR-proof jackets - but even an EMR-proof bra and EMR-proof boxer shorts!

They have a FAQs section which includes:

Q. "Is there some evidence that [EMR] signals are harmful?"

A. "We are not saying that it`s proved or we should be scared. And the truth is that there is no official evidence that signals cause something. But there are many studies and plenty of documentaries which are dealing with this topic. And without the wind, the grass does not move."


Peter
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Old Thursday 20th September 2018, 19:57   #1294
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PH, once again you have taken a simple fact and distorted it to suit your agenda. The French have banned children using mobile phones in some schools, and it is also beginning to happen quite a lot in UK schools. Nothing to do with radiation, simply to do with kids not concentrating on their studies.
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Old Friday 21st September 2018, 10:44   #1295
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@ Peter Clearly you have never met anyone who suffers from microwave sickness, also called electrosensitivity. I have, and you cannot possibly have any idea how incapacitating it is to try to live and work in modern society if you are affected by EMR. Interestingly, a number of people who have developed microwave sickness are or were medical doctors and IT professionals who had constant contact with EMR-emitting equipment. Microwave sickness seems (from what I know about it) to develop in certain people as a result of being sensitized to EMR through exposure, rather like allergies or sensitivities to certain chemicals.

As for the quote from the FAQ section, which is obviously a disclaimer, let me ask you a question. Despite the numerous studies on this thread which show evidence of damage from EMR, you clearly are not convinced that EMR is unsafe. Have you any evidence that is IS safe? I don't mean commentaries casting doubts on studies that have found damage from EMR, or the (mostly industry-funded) studies that have found no evidence of harm. But how do you know it is safe? After all, history is littered with drugs and chemicals and products which were all considered safe, but weren't--and many of them were actually tested for safety, which wireless technologies have never been. So where is your evidence of safety?

@ Den. You are wrong. Radiation is a concern with children in these countries, in addition to the harm that constantly staring at screens does. See the mother talking about NHS advice on mobile phones and children in the Dartington video, above.
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Old Friday 21st September 2018, 15:07   #1296
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@ Peter Clearly you have never met anyone who suffers from microwave sickness, also called electrosensitivity.
Once again, you make assumptions which fit your, if I may say so, rather narrow spectrum.

I know a woman who claims to suffer from this "condition". She insists that her husband switches off power sockets which aren't connected because "the power leaks out of the holes". She sits on the opposite side of the room to any mains socket whenever she can. She flinches if a car passes by her house, convinced "its magneto causes me damage". She also has fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, lyme's disease, osteoarthritis, psoriatic arthritis and several more conditions. She uses a wheelchair when in public, despite showing no such need in unguarded moments. She blames all her conditions on electrosensitivity, lead fillings in her teeth and being sent away to boarding school as a child.


You ask me to offer "evidence of safety". You should know better. There is no experimental design in the world which can do this. If you get knocked over by a red Tesla car, does it mean that all the blue ones are safe?

And finally, you really should get out more and talk to Jo(e) public about phones and children's education. Schools' concerns are mainly about children's concentration being affected in lessons and text nastiness spreading during their down time.

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Old Saturday 22nd September 2018, 09:14   #1297
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@ Peter Okay, I have to say that the woman you are talking about sounds like a real fat-file patient, so if that is what you think all EHS people are like I can understand your lack of sympathy--I've known one or two like that myself, not claiming to be EHS but having something wrong that they attributed to first to one thing, then another, until finally it seemed that everything was wrong with them and one concluded that the problem was probably not physical in origin. But as you will have seen from the Minnesota study which Ed attached a couple of weeks ago, there are people who can accurately identify when they are being exposed to EMR. I think it is fair to say that if this can be done in a carefully controlled laboratory setting, it's not a psychological problem.

While I agree that much concern about mobile phones in schools has to do with the effects of screens on learning, etc., there is also concern about the radiation per se, and in France they are taking other steps such as getting rid of Wi-Fi in the National Library (perhaps all public libraries, I can't recall). I do talk to people, and Joe Average's concerns about mobile phones covers the whole gamut from bullying to radiation, depending on who you are talking to. A recent study (sorry, don't have the reference) found that there is a world of difference in cognitive function between children who primarily read books versus children who spend most of their time on screens. So there are a great many reasons why it is not a good idea to give children mobile devices, and it is probably not a good idea for them to spend much time on computers or in front of televisions, either.

@ All

Attached is a commentary by Dr. Ronald L Melnick, former Senior Toxicologist and Director of Special Programs in the Environmental Toxicology Program at the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS) about the recent National Toxicology Program study which found evidence of cancer in rats exposed to EMR. The NTP study (as well as the Ramazzini study, which had similar results) demonstrates clearly that EMR is carcinogenic, and these two studies may form the basis of a reevaluation of the WHO/IARC classification of EMR, which may be upgraded to a group 2A (probable human carcinogen) or even a group 1 (carcinogenic to humans) as a result.

Needless to say that many vested interests are not at all keen for this to happen, so there has been a good deal of vocal criticism of the NTP study--think back to that first NYT article proclaiming that the NTP study proves cell phones are safe. This paper by Melnick rebuts these criticisms in detail. Those of you who did read the NTP study but didn't find it all that exciting might want to read this piece, which explains how it is possible to find tumours in male but not female rats, and what exactly is meant when a finding has statistical significance. After reading Melnick's rebuttal of the criticisms leveled at the study, you begin to understand why the WHO/IARC might want to reevaluate the carcinogenicity of EMR.

There is also a recent paper by, among others, Anthony B.Miller, who was on the original WHO/IARC committee. This is called "Cancer epidemiology update, following the 2011 IARC evaluation of radiofrequency electromagnetic fields (Monograph 102)" and can be found at https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...13935118303475
Nine studies between 2011-2017 have found increased risk of brain cancer from mobile phone use, four studies have found increased risk of vestibular nerve tumours, there is concern about other cancers, and Miller et.al believe that it is time for EMR to be reclassified as a Group 1.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf R Melnick Commentary on NTP Study.pdf (218.5 KB, 6 views)
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Old Sunday 23rd September 2018, 12:09   #1298
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@ Peter, Den, all

The attached document, written by Michigan state senator Patrick Colbeck, is a good brief summary of issues surrounding wireless technologies and 5g/IoT. Although he is not arguing for wireless technologies to be banned, he is arguing for public health and safety, which he feels is being disregarded. It's a good, concise briefing document.

Den and Peter, please have a look at pages 6 and 7 of the document, where he briefly discusses the French position vis-a-vis cellphones and Wi-Fi in schools, libraries and public places. You will see that the radiation is the issue, not screen time.
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File Type: pdf 2018-09-20 Colbeck - Wireless-Radiation-Brief.pdf (1.22 MB, 6 views)
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Old Sunday 23rd September 2018, 12:46   #1299
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PH, once again you have taken a simple fact and distorted it to suit your agenda. The French have banned children using mobile phones in some schools, and it is also beginning to happen quite a lot in UK schools. Nothing to do with radiation, simply to do with kids not concentrating on their studies.
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@ Den. You are wrong. Radiation is a concern with children in these countries, in addition to the harm that constantly staring at screens does. See the mother talking about NHS advice on mobile phones and children in the Dartington video, above.
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Den and Peter, please have a look at pages 6 and 7 of the document, where he briefly discusses the French position vis-a-vis cellphones and Wi-Fi in schools, libraries and public places. You will see that the radiation is the issue, not screen time.
Funny how the French education minister, he who is responsible for introducing the ban, says it is aimed at helping children focus on lessons, as well as to socialise better and to reduce social media use. Maybe he just forgot the 'real' reason, eh?
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Old Sunday 23rd September 2018, 14:05   #1300
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@ Peter, Den, all

The attached document, written by Michigan state senator Patrick Colbeck, is a good brief summary of issues surrounding wireless technologies and 5g/IoT. Although he is not arguing for wireless technologies to be banned, he is arguing for public health and safety, which he feels is being disregarded. It's a good, concise briefing document.

Den and Peter, please have a look at pages 6 and 7 of the document, where he briefly discusses the French position vis-a-vis cellphones and Wi-Fi in schools, libraries and public places. You will see that the radiation is the issue, not screen time.
If you're citing Patrick Colbeck as an evidence-based stalwart, be aware that he, not alone, has sought to remove from Social Studies curricula in Michigan mention of the KKK and any reference to climate change (Chicago Metro June 2018) and that his campaigning stance consistently emphasises that it is his faith that allows him to be right in his statements. He's also slapdash in his verbose responses to media questions or criticism (again June 2018) and is a fervent supporter of Mr Trump's anti-science position.

In his favour, he's an accomplished engineer of some of the Space Station subsystems. I'll leave others to decide if there's a glaring contradiction in there somewhere.
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