Jungle unhindered: where in the world? (1 Viewer)

opisska · Jul 3, 2019

A world-wide question may sound silly at first, but I am a bit desperate and hope to harvest the vast knowledge of the forum.

Basically, I like to wander around in jungle by myself, but find it absurdly difficult to do. I do not want to stay in a lodge for 3digit sums per day and first and foremost I do not want to have a guide. In almost any conceivable biotope, there are endless options around the planet to just turn up somewhere and walk around,optimally camping in the nights, but for jungle, a lot of places greet you with private barriers or official requirements to take a guide. I understand some places have dangerous animals, but I would rather decide on my safety myself - and outside Africa (taht is, in Americas and SE Asia - I do not know much about Australia/Ocenia tbf.), the risks are super low mostly.

I have been successful at some places, but these are unreasonably hard to find. The prime example is Malaysia's Taman Negara, but even there the clamps are getting down a bit and the area where you do not "have" to take a guide is gradually shrinking. Besides that, Yanachaga Chemillen in Peru worked like this and Calilegua in Argentina (but that's mountain forest, not "real" jungle) and that's about it what I found in years ...

I do not need much infrastructure, I just need to get there and find a place to put a tent and get water (which I can purify myself) and some trails that allow at least a few kms of freedom, that's literally all I ask. I am willing to pay an entrance fee, if "reasonable" (say, 50 bucks per day max, but preferably less) and I am open to basically any country where they don't straight out shoot me for being a foreigner.

If anyone has tips, I would be indebted!

(To avoid possible misunderstanding, I am not looking for explanations as to the virtue of having a guide, no matter how great of a time you had with one. I am 100% sure I'd have hated it.)

Andy Adcock · Jul 3, 2019

Khao Yai, Thailand would be an obvious one. Once you're inside the park you can pretty much do what you like and there is camping but beware Elephants!

opisska · Jul 3, 2019

andyadcock said:
Khao Yai, Thailand would be an obvious one. Once you're inside the park you can pretty much do what you like and there is camping but beware Elephants!

Thanks andy! However I have actually been to Khao Yai in 2014 and besides a few short trails, everything was strictly guided only. Also camping seemed to be allowed only in the central campsite, with hundreds of locals. It was pretty nice nevertheless, we enjoyed it, but still quite restricted. (The enjoyment may have been increased by the fact that we discovered how to bypass some "guards" and do stuff that was guide-only on our own.)

Nutcracker · Jul 3, 2019

I'd suspect those rules are generally in place for good reasons, not so much to protect you, but to protect the ecosystem from people, particularly from poaching.

Andrew Whitehouse · Jul 3, 2019

It depends a bit what sort of 'jungle' you want and what kind of experience. There are lots of good areas of rainforest that you can access from public roads (Manu Road is maybe a classic example, but there are plenty of others). Places with their own trail systems tend to be a bit more restricted or are at very expensive lodges. Maybe try Yellow House in Mindo, Ecuador for somewhere that's cheap, good and has a decent trail system:
http://www.ecuadormindobirds.com/index.html
The Mindo area in general is good for what you're looking for.

Pipeline Trail in Gamboa, Panama was completely fine to walk along unguided when I was there a few years ago. Quite a few places in Costa Rica would also be okay.

jurek · Jul 3, 2019

Sepilok in Borneo, if you stay in a homestay close to the entrance. Danum if you go to the smaller ecotourism resort. Costa Rica offers some places where you can effectively walk on your own. Some places in Argentina, like roadside camping in Uruguay (not the Uruguay country but a reserve).

In many places, once you go to the forest, nobody will notice whether you go on the track or off the track. Khao Yai is not good because it is very rugged, and you want to see things, not climb hills.

I sympathize with your dislike for over-restrictive ecotourism aimed at idiots.

opisska · Jul 3, 2019

Andrew: Yellow house sounds awesome! Not exactly what I was looking for, but I'd say another kind of thing I was looking for anyway

I have also neglected Central America so far, maybe it's about time to look into it more!

Jurek: I wouldn't be so harsh to "normal tourists", I wish to happily coexist as we want different things. Borneo seems to be an oft repeated thing, I am thinking about it a lot - but afaik this year all my free time falls into the rainy season. Argentina is probably quite good, I tend to overlook it since I have been there so many times (but not much in the rainforest part).

Andy Adcock · Jul 3, 2019

opisska said:
Thanks andy! However I have actually been to Khao Yai in 2014 and besides a few short trails, everything was strictly guided only. Also camping seemed to be allowed only in the central campsite, with hundreds of locals. It was pretty nice nevertheless, we enjoyed it, but still quite restricted. (The enjoyment may have been increased by the fact that we discovered how to bypass some "guards" and do stuff that was guide-only on our own.)

Well that's changes since I was there, we never took or saw a guide whilst there, finding our own Javan Night Heron, Coral-billed Ground Cucloo and Eared Pitta etc.

Re camping, I'd imagine this rule is aimed at keeping the park free from litter among other things, many places in Asia, even National Parks, suffer terribly from littering.

temmie · Jul 3, 2019

I guess your definition of jungle is lowland tropical forest?
If so, correct there are fewer and fewer good options left on this planet as most of it is being cut at (still) astounding speeds.

Two places that I remember, where you can bird trails by walking out of the village / town are Mitu and Tabajara. I reckon inland Brasil has many of those trails, but unfortunately a lot of those areas change rapidly, and humans living there are sometimes very wary (or even not very welcoming) strangers / outsiders, especially if they make a living through illegal activities like logging. The whole area around Manaus, Porto Velho, Leticia, Iquitos... can still get you easily into prime habitat, but the main issue is mostly having enough comfortable trails to get you deep into the forest (if that is what you want).

Some places have wonderful birding, with the added value of a restaurant and/or accomodation, but you need to fullful certain procedures etcetera before you can get there. Think of Los Amigos in Peru, FLONA in Brazil, and all kinds of smal research facilities (but for some you need to know the right people or get the procedure right).

DMW · Jul 3, 2019

Nutcracker said:
I'd suspect those rules are generally in place for good reasons, not so much to protect you, but to protect the ecosystem from people, particularly from poaching.

Quite the opposite, usually. Poachers tend not to go in through the front door and buy an entrance ticket, and the presence of tourists actually deters them. I was in a NP last month where an area has been closed to tourists to "prevent disturbance", and is now a free-for all for poachers. I've also had two instances where armed poachers have run away upon encountering me.

In most parts of the world that have "jungles", the requirement to have a guide is generally either a money-making exercise for park staff; worry that you will get lost and they will get into trouble; or a way that park staff can keep you away from the poachers / illegal loggers who pay them bribes.

Andy Adcock · Jul 3, 2019

DMW said:
Quite the opposite, usually. Poachers tend not to go in through the front door and buy an entrance ticket, and the presence of tourists actually deters them. I was in a NP last month where an area has been closed to tourists to "prevent disturbance", and is now a free-for all for poachers. I've also had two instances where armed poachers have run away upon encountering me.

In most parts of the world that have "jungles", the requirement to have a guide is generally either a money-making exercise for park staff; worry that you will get lost and they will get into trouble; or a way that park staff can keep you away from the poachers / illegal loggers who pay them bribes.

Is that maybe because you were creeping around the forest in the buff a la Vladimir Dinets aka 'the naked Russian'...........:eek!:

jurek · Jul 3, 2019

DMW said:
Quite the opposite, usually. Poachers tend not to go in through the front door and buy an entrance ticket, and the presence of tourists actually deters them.

DMW said:
In most parts of the world that have "jungles", the requirement to have a guide is generally either a money-making exercise for park staff; worry that you will get lost and they will get into trouble

I am of the same opinion.

Also, there is a remarkable difference from national parks in Europe and North America, where the idea of a national park appeared. First, the management understands that charging money easily discourages public from nature. Young people spend days in virtual worlds, like video games, full of wonderful nature but are ignorant what happens to real nature. Second, if you get lost or otherwise get into trouble, it is your fault.

(end of off topic)

viator · Jul 7, 2019

opisska said:
Thanks andy! However I have actually been to Khao Yai in 2014 and besides a few short trails, everything was strictly guided only. Also camping seemed to be allowed only in the central campsite, with hundreds of locals. It was pretty nice nevertheless, we enjoyed it, but still quite restricted. (The enjoyment may have been increased by the fact that we discovered how to bypass some "guards" and do stuff that was guide-only on our own.)

Campsites - just avoid weekends and you should have pretty much to yourself.

No idea why you think "strictly guided only" - some of the trails are "guide recommended" but you can certainly get by without them and as far as I'm aware on no trails is it mandatory. The only restriction (which up to you on paying attention to) is the danger of elephants if you walk out of the campsites at night....

opisska · Jul 7, 2019

viator said:
Campsites - just avoid weekends and you should have pretty much to yourself.

No idea why you think "strictly guided only" - some of the trails are "guide recommended" but you can certainly get by without them and as far as I'm aware on no trails is it mandatory. The only restriction (which up to you on paying attention to) is the danger of elephants if you walk out of the campsites at night....

This was simply not true as of our visit in 2014. Besides two or three shortest trails, every trailhead was equipped with a sign saying guide is compulsory and at some places, strategically located rangers would turn around anyone without one.

njlarsen · Jul 7, 2019

I think that most of the sites in Central America would allow you to wander around but not camp within the jungle itself. I cannot remember the entrance fee for Calakmul in the Mexican part of Yucatan, but that migth be a place where you can go to a campsite within the area and use their trails. Again, I don't think you are allowed to camp everywhere in the area.

Niels

James Lowther · Jul 7, 2019

No need for a guide at either cat tien or cuc phuong in Vietnam. Not sure about camping but accommodation is not expensive

It’s been a long time since I was there but cockscomb basin in Belize was fine without a guide, vigia Chico road in yucatan, completely free access. Amazonia lodge in se Peru guide free
Cheers
James

njlarsen · Jul 7, 2019

I want to bring up what you said about lodges. Do remember that a lot of the forest with no lodge on it has a short half-life. If you truly want the forest to be protected, then paying the fee for that protection can be part of the solution. I just came back from a trip to SW Ecuador where we stayed at four different lodges of that type and apart from watching feeding there was no requirement for guiding. The same foundation (Jocotoco) also has some reserves without lodges.

Niels

opisska · Jul 8, 2019

njlarsen said:
I want to bring up what you said about lodges. Do remember that a lot of the forest with no lodge on it has a short half-life. If you truly want the forest to be protected, then paying the fee for that protection can be part of the solution. I just came back from a trip to SW Ecuador where we stayed at four different lodges of that type and apart from watching feeding there was no requirement for guiding. The same foundation (Jocotoco) also has some reserves without lodges.

Niels

Well, it depends. There are clear examples in what I listed, that destruction and expensive tourism aren't the only two option in existence - I am probably talking about Taman Negara too much, but... Tamana bloody Negara! Then you might say okay, Malaysia is super rich, so I raise you Yanachaga-Chemillen, in Peru of all places: state maintained, huge, well protected, yet accessible for basically free. Government rangers working with locals for the benefit of everyone, people in the area do genuinely seem to like its existence.

I have no problem with the existence of expensive places, my only "problem" is that those get the most marketing and it becomes quite hard to look up something else. Or maybe I am just not good enough in searching, hence this thread - which seems to lowkey grind the gears of a few people, but heck, that's the price I am willing to pay for all this great intel. What I learned following the leads posted here will probably fill my calendar for the next few years!

On a side note, I think one sad thing is that the globality of travel exposes the inequality between tourists from different parts of the world. Six years ago (man, that really didn't feel that long ago before facebook showed me the memory) I was in REGUA, an absolute wonderland, also suggested to me here. When I was there, I saw a group of "elderly" - that is, of an apparently retired age - Brittish people cheerfully enjoying their golden years in that lodge. The whole average Czech monthly pension pays for a little less than 4 nights in that place at their posted rates ... (I know that this particular place is probably one of the most likely to cut some slack to underprivileged guests, but it's the one I know the numbers for).

Andy Adcock · Jul 8, 2019

opisska said:
Well, it depends. There are clear examples in what I listed, that destruction and expensive tourism aren't the only two option in existence - I am probably talking about Taman Negara too much, but... Tamana bloody Negara! Then you might say okay, Malaysia is super rich, so I raise you Yanachaga-Chemillen, in Peru of all places: state maintained, huge, well protected, yet accessible for basically free. Government rangers working with locals for the benefit of everyone, people in the area do genuinely seem to like its existence.

I have no problem with the existence of expensive places, my only "problem" is that those get the most marketing and it becomes quite hard to look up something else. Or maybe I am just not good enough in searching, hence this thread - which seems to lowkey grind the gears of a few people, but heck, that's the price I am willing to pay for all this great intel. What I learned following the leads posted here will probably fill my calendar for the next few years!

On a side note, I think one sad thing is that the globality of travel exposes the inequality between tourists from different parts of the world. Six years ago (man, that really didn't feel that long ago before facebook showed me the memory) I was in REGUA, an absolute wonderland, also suggested to me here. When I was there, I saw a group of "elderly" - that is, of an apparently retired age - Brittish people cheerfully enjoying their golden years in that lodge. The whole average Czech monthly pension pays for a little less than 4 nights in that place at their posted rates ... (I know that this particular place is probably one of the most likely to cut some slack to underprivileged guests, but it's the one I know the numbers for).

Let's not get side tracked here but the UK state pension (maximum £129.20 per week) is not sufficient either, that it's recipients can travel to such places. The elderly Brits you mention, like others from elsewhere, will have savings and private pensions and are probably retired professionals.

In actual fact, many places are prohibitively expensive for some of those still in work.

opisska · Jul 8, 2019

andyadcock said:
Let's not get side tracked here but the UK state pension (maximum £129.20 per week) is not sufficient either, that it's recipients can travel to such places. The elderly Brits you mention, like others from elsewhere, will have savings and private pensions and are probably retired professionals.

In actual fact, many places are prohibitively expensive for some of those still in work.

Whoooa, that's basically living on the street money in UK, no? Had no idea some things are this lame in there. Well, the average salary is still more than double than ours apparently. In any case, the point is that the prices are often unreasonable and while the defense of "making money off tourists helps motivate locals to keep tue nature" has obvious merits, a lot of places go heavily overboard. And again, reasonable places exist, but looking for them ... I would just love to have a guidebook series as thorough as Lonely Planets are, but written by people who do not require to spend every waking hour catered for in the maximum possible comfort. Maybe I'll start one!? But something tells me that making books specifically for cheapskates isn't the brightest business move ...

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