Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Favoured types of birding trips

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Wednesday 3rd April 2019, 14:09   #26
stuartvine
Registered User
 
stuartvine's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Surbiton
Posts: 704
As someone who has a non-birding partner, our solo (well, duo) trip planning is something like a Cold War Summit meeting: "OK, we'll climb Mt X on Thursday, but there's a nice marsh just along the coast, how about we go there on Friday?" Etc, etc.

We also choose non-birding guided tours, but to places with a lot of birds and other wildlife (and often with some really good wildlife guides). OK, I miss out on a lot of birds, but have some pretty fine holidays and a lasting relationship!
__________________
"Let loose the Kraken!"
stuartvine is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 3rd April 2019, 17:19   #27
Steve Babbs
Steve Babbs
 
Steve Babbs's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Sweetland View Post
....sorry it's me again . Compare and contrast these two birding experiences:-

1. You're on a trail in the forest...
You: "Did you hear that?"
Guide: "It is me playing a recording"
You: "Ah, what is it?"
Guide: "Look, there, here it comes....... Dullish-everythinged Antgleaner."
You: "Wow, nice one. Thanks. Wasn't sure you'd manage to find that one for me. Cool."

2. Your heart's beating fast because you've scrambled uncomfortably far off the trail, into an unfamiliar forest, in the direction of a call that somehow really reminds you of Commonish Antgleaner, which you last heard five years ago.
You: (quietly) I wonder.....could it be??... SH*T....come back you!....AHHH! Show us your head you little B.........oh hang on maybe it's just a...NO WOW!!!!! NO ********WAY! YES! YEEEEEEEES! At last! DULLISH-EVERYTHINGED ANTGLEANER!.....You little BEAUTY. Thank you little bird!"

Which of these is maximising your birding experience?
I'm with Larry. Numbers mean nothing to me. I'd much rather have half the birds species and have located them myself. I will hire local guides, if there is something I desperately want to see but don't feel I have a realistic chance on my own. But I have done it a handful of times in the 35 years I've been travelling abroad. I will do it again, e.g for snow leopard, but for me it really is not the same. I'm sure when I do see snow leopard that way I will enjoy it but if I found my own I'd be on a high for several years.
__________________
Please visit my website at www.stevebabbs.com

@SteveBabbs
Steve Babbs is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 3rd April 2019, 20:20   #28
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroon Jay View Post
I have hired many local guides in various countries from Guatemala to New Zealand. Never have I had to pay in advance and never have I had a language problem. Most guides speak at least basic English. If you are coming from France or Germany or some other non-English country this might be a problem if you don't speak English or the local language. Also, there is the advantage of not needing a guide for every day of your trip. You could go, for example, on a two-week trip and hire a guide for only two days of it. This method does require a lot more planning and self-reliance.
We usually do a few days alone at a sit then take a guide which then allows a much more targeted approach. Why pay someone to show you stuff you would find on your own.

We decided to do this for Herero Chat in Namibia, you could wander around there all day and not find one and its bloody hot!
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 3rd April 2019, 23:00   #29
Larry Sweetland
Formerly 'Larry Wheatland'
 
Larry Sweetland's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bristol
Posts: 7,242
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post

We decided to do this for Herero Chat in Namibia, you could wander around there all day and not find one and its bloody hot!
For me Hrero Chat is a classic example of not needing a guide, but spending your money in staying longer for cheaper, and bimbling about on your own. We didn't see it at any "sites" but just bumped them a couple of times by the side of the road, with time to stop and check them out.
Larry Sweetland is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 4th April 2019, 06:22   #30
Britseye
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Isles of Scilly
Posts: 678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Sweetland View Post
....sorry it's me again . Compare and contrast these two birding experiences:-

1. You're on a trail in the forest...
You: "Did you hear that?"
Guide: "It is me playing a recording"
You: "Ah, what is it?"
Guide: "Look, there, here it comes....... Dullish-everythinged Antgleaner."
You: "Wow, nice one. Thanks. Wasn't sure you'd manage to find that one for me. Cool."

2. Your heart's beating fast because you've scrambled uncomfortably far off the trail, into an unfamiliar forest, in the direction of a call that somehow really reminds you of Commonish Antgleaner, which you last heard five years ago.
You: (quietly) I wonder.....could it be??... SH*T....come back you!....AHHH! Show us your head you little B.........oh hang on maybe it's just a...NO WOW!!!!! NO ********WAY! YES! YEEEEEEEES! At last! DULLISH-EVERYTHINGED ANTGLEANER!.....You little BEAUTY. Thank you little bird!"

Which of these is maximising your birding experience?
I don't twitter and all those hearts and likes at the bottom of messages make me shake my head, but I'm going to give you a heart and a like for this and other posts on this thread, Larry you weird whatsitsname! I like the cut of your jib.
Britseye is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 4th April 2019, 07:03   #31
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Sweetland View Post
For me Hrero Chat is a classic example of not needing a guide, but spending your money in staying longer for cheaper, and bimbling about on your own. We didn't see it at any "sites" but just bumped them a couple of times by the side of the road, with time to stop and check them out.
We were coming to the end of a six week trip aND just didn't have the time to spare.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 4th April 2019, 09:51   #32
Larry Sweetland
Formerly 'Larry Wheatland'
 
Larry Sweetland's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bristol
Posts: 7,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
We were coming to the end of a six week trip aND just didn't have the time to spare.
I'll let you off then Andy
Larry Sweetland is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 4th April 2019, 14:59   #33
karadya
Registered User
 
karadya's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Andresito, Misiones
Posts: 59
I guess everyone has different expectations and ways of enjoying birdwatching. I have travelled to many places and at some point , wish to have a local expert with me, giving me some juicy tips about rare birds and unknown locations, or even about the common ones. I enjoy watching and identifying the "little brown jobs" that look similar, sometimes do not sing and are really hard to identify without the expert eye. I have even done a "private wildlife safari" in Kenya and decided that next time I won´t loose time and I will just hire a local birdwatching guide. Birding guides will usually know about animals in general, local culture, vagrants presence, nests!!!! etc etc. Besides, you can have both experince in the same trip, as many others said, you can go on your own one day and then hire a local guide. On the other hand, in certain areas like the Iguazú National Park, birding guides are the only people allowed to enter the park before is open for regular tourism, and in many other areas you are supposed to hire a guide (like Massai Mara). If I really think through, I think that my best birding moments were all shared with someone else besides me, enjoying that magic moment with inmediate feed back, and having a great subject of conversation for the beer moment at the end of the day!

Last edited by karadya : Thursday 4th April 2019 at 15:02.
karadya is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 4th April 2019, 15:19   #34
htcdude
Registered User
 
htcdude's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Swindon
Posts: 1,150
I haven't done much birding abroad but I'd much prefer going and doing my own thing, learning sites myself and finding species at random. However if there was something specific I was targetting that I knew would be difficult on my own then I may consider a guide.

NIge
__________________
Latest British bird - Yellow-browed Warbler (271)
Latest World bird - Yellow-browed Warbler (348)
Latest British moth - Lead-coloured Drab (613)
htcdude is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 5th April 2019, 13:02   #35
kb57
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Durham, UK
Posts: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by karadya View Post
I guess everyone has different expectations and ways of enjoying birdwatching. I have travelled to many places and at some point , wish to have a local expert with me, giving me some juicy tips about rare birds and unknown locations, or even about the common ones. I enjoy watching and identifying the "little brown jobs" that look similar, sometimes do not sing and are really hard to identify without the expert eye. I have even done a "private wildlife safari" in Kenya and decided that next time I won´t loose time and I will just hire a local birdwatching guide. Birding guides will usually know about animals in general, local culture, vagrants presence, nests!!!! etc etc. Besides, you can have both experince in the same trip, as many others said, you can go on your own one day and then hire a local guide. On the other hand, in certain areas like the Iguazú National Park, birding guides are the only people allowed to enter the park before is open for regular tourism, and in many other areas you are supposed to hire a guide (like Massai Mara). If I really think through, I think that my best birding moments were all shared with someone else besides me, enjoying that magic moment with inmediate feed back, and having a great subject of conversation for the beer moment at the end of the day!
Quote:
Originally Posted by htcdude View Post
I haven't done much birding abroad but I'd much prefer going and doing my own thing, learning sites myself and finding species at random. However if there was something specific I was targetting that I knew would be difficult on my own then I may consider a guide.

NIge
Two contrasting views here which I think are equally valid, depending on circumstances.
I've only been on a couple of holidays where birding was the main or significant activity (Japan and Colombia), but they illustrated widely contrasting situations regarding the necessity for some local knowledge.
In Hokkaido, almost all the specific targets (Japanese crane, Steller's sea-eagle, Blakiston's fish-owl) are more or less guaranteed if you turn up at the right place - you don't need a guide, but you'll be sharing the experience with a lot of other birders and even more bird photographers. You are also in the Palaearctic region, so lots of the species are familiar to a European birder, albeit with different subspecies in most cases. When you are on your own (as I was on Izu islands), there are only a few additional species to learn (e.g. brown-eared bulbul) before you can home in on the unfamiliar targets (i.e. Izu thrush, Owston's tit), but there isn't really any need for guiding.
In Colombia, I added 17 new families to my life list, not counting hummingbirds, icterids and Parulid warblers where I'd only seen a couple of species before. Here local guides made for a much richer birding experience, including on the cultural / companionship side which karadya alludes to. I also enjoyed birding on my own, but quite a lot of the time I at least initially had no idea what I was looking at, and it was a case of 'shoot first, ask questions later'. I know I missed out on species which a guide would've got, particularly those of the 'Dullish-everythinged Antgleaner' ilk, and the satisfaction of self-finding and identifying your own birds has to be weighed against this.

What is interesting about this thread is how few people have supported the all-in 'package tour' approach with a European or American leader - the debate seems to have coalesced around local guides vs. self-finding.
kb57 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 5th April 2019, 13:16   #36
Paul Longland
Registered User
 
Paul Longland's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: leicester
Posts: 634
I am firmly in the DIY camp. I actually enjoy the planning, researching the area, looking for likely accommodation (usually go self catering for the flexibility) working out routes and itineraries, putting a "hit list" of places and targets etc. OK so maybe I might miss a few things that a guided tour might pick up, but then it is amazing what you can find simply by talking to the locals and picking up information from reserve visitors centres, local tourist information etc. With the amount of information now available a mouse click away it should not be that hard to plan a decent trip yourself.

Personally I just like to have the freedom to pick and choose when and where I go rather than having a fixed schedule. If I want to stay out late, or start early then I am not reliant on others, or need to get back for mealtimes etc. I can simply up and go. If the weather changes I can alter my plans accordingly, similarly if I get a hot tip from other birders then I can change plans at any time.

That is not to say that using a local guide cannot also be valuable in tracking down elusive targets but again I would do this independently rather than through an organized package.

No disrespect to those that do take the package route but it all seems a bit plastic to me and a bit of a procession. I would rather just get myself out to the right habitat, known hotspots etc and seek out my own targets.
Paul Longland is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 5th April 2019, 18:43   #37
Alexjh1
Registered User
 
Alexjh1's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Northants, UK
Posts: 610
Blog Entries: 3
I would say habitat is also a factor, because honestly some habitats are just way more birding-hostile than others.

If I'm going somewhere with nice mudflats on the edge of an estuary for instance, I wouldn't generally bother getting a guide unless it was part of a broader trip; water based habitats are generally the easiest to bird because the birds will be literally sitting on an open surface half the time.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, birding in forest or grassland without specialist knowledge could very easily be very frustrating. Forest you frequently may be surrounded by birds, be able to hear them or catch glimpses but you lack the expertise to actually know what you've seen or to be able to know how to get the best views. The kind of birds of you might hire a guide to see in grassland on the other hand (bustard species for a personal example) could be anywhere and especially if their location is protected it's just looking for a needle in a literal haystack.

Besides, the "guide plays a call on a phone, they appear, you tick it off" isn't necessarily indicative of all guides. I don't think any guides I've hired have used playback, and honestly, there is a buzz being guided by an expert and being able to pick out some stuff before they see it. Picking out my first ever Bonelli's eagle at great height in Monfrague while my guide was looking at some other raptors remains one of my favourite birding moments. Doing your own research DOES contribute to the overall success of even a guided trip.
__________________
The Bird-dex - Photographing all bird species I see without an SLR - over 440 species so far.
Recent Additions: Bengal Florican, Lesser Adjutant, Oriental Darter, Copper-throated Sunbird, Grey-headed Fish Eagle, Black-headed Ibis, Pied Harrier, Stork-billed Kingfisher
Alexjh1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 12th April 2019, 10:08   #38
Stephen C
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Spain
Posts: 813
Local Guides

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Sweetland View Post
1. You're on a trail in the forest...
You: "Did you hear that?"
Guide: "It is me playing a recording"
You: "Ah, what is it?"
Guide: "Look, there, here it comes....... Dullish-everythinged Antgleaner."
You: "Wow, nice one. Thanks. Wasn't sure you'd manage to find that one for me. Cool."
You've been with the wrong guides, Larry, or on the wrong kind of trips for you.

I know you know this but I'm sure there are many guides like me. I don't use tape lures. I believe in field craft. I bird my patch all year round and my routes change depending upon, e.g. bird movements and land use changes by farmers, etc. And I always have a Plan B, C, etc.

There's strategy behind my madness too.

i) Fixed accommodation so we can adjust and adapt chosen daily itineraries based upon weather forecast, targets (if any) acquired, local bird news or even whim

ii) Use of 4x4 vehicle which, although expensive to run, maximises deep country access - with sandgrouse often car-side for example - and increases guide/client contact

iii) I design each tour to cover as wide a range of habitats as possible, repeating them as much as possible, in order to encounter the full range of species available without having to rush around chasing birds

iv) I'm a qualified zoologist so like to chat about each species life history, ecology, adaptations, etc., all of which, I think enriches the experience

There's more but my point is that many of us are professionals that take our job seriously. I know you weren't saying otherwise, Larry, I'm not challenging your experiences. I totally understand those that want to find birds themselves rather than hire a guide.

I love birding my patch throughout the year and get a huge thrill showing clients around Catalonia and Aragon (sometimes other parts of Spain) and my objective is 'always try to make the experience as close to birding with friends as possible'. Selfishly, it's a better experience for me too.


I had a fantastic tour in the Steppes yesterday with a couple and their kid, all of us (including me) absolutely thrilled at an Eagle Owl looking at us down the scope, counting and re-counting Pin-tailed Sandgrouse close to the car but still hard to see until they stand up, head-throwing, farting Little Bustard, marvelled at 200 Griffons circling overhead trying to pick out the Egyptians only to find them on the floor close-by, Great Spotted Cuckoo pursued by Magpies, Golden Eagle helter-skeltering, etc. etc.

They made the comment that, birding on their own, they wouldn't have got 10% of the species we spent time watching and enjoying. We watched and enjoyed birds ALL DAY. No time wasted driving around, trying to find species, may be getting lost, etc.

Depending upon who you are, I suppose there are advantages and disadvantages between self-birding, local guides or big tour companies.

Birding experiences aren't always made by the birds. For some it's the people you share them with too. Others, on the other hand, prefer their own company. It's all cool.

Good luck to us all. We're all after the same thing, just in different ways.

Last edited by Stephen C : Friday 12th April 2019 at 10:11. Reason: deleting line spaces
Stephen C is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 13th April 2019, 04:56   #39
Adun
Registered User
 
Adun's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Colombia
Posts: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen C View Post
Depending upon who you are, I suppose there are advantages and disadvantages between self-birding, local guides or big tour companies.
I agree with you.

My wife and I only recently started birding, and we are starting to notice the big difference between serious outings with professional guides and "winging it" ourselves. Also the difference between the truly local guide (the one who lives near the observing area and is there often) and other professional guides (from the city) who undoubtedly know a lot (and speak English), but deliver an experience that is just not the same.

I'm a very "DIY" trip planner myself, and birding tours are very expensive (specially when your income is in devalued Colombian currency), so I've been doing research attending to the tours organized by local bird fairs, taking names of local guides and lodges and operators, learning to analyze eBird's hot spots to identify birding locations and looking them up on goggle maps, etc. The information is out there, it just takes some time/research.

I've been thinking about making this information available, as some sort of website where people like me, who prefer to "DIY" organize their own trips can find out where they can go, what they might see, where they can stay/Lodge, who they can call to get a (truly local) guide (or how to get the most out of it if going alone), the costs, permits, capacity limits etc.

If anything, such a thing would help get more Colombians out of the cities and into the countryside, consuming services from rural communities, which might help teach those communities to ascribe value to their nature riches, so they might want to preserve them when the inevitable pressures of oil/mining/development come around.

It would be quite a bit of effort though.

Last edited by Adun : Saturday 13th April 2019 at 05:09.
Adun is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 13th April 2019, 10:58   #40
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Switzerland/Poland
Posts: 3,969
We not yet discussed that some places have very poor infrastructure or actually force "official" visit with a guide. There is no way to see Uganda gorillas or Galapagos or Komodo truly "independently". At the same time, most other islets in Indonesia can be birded independently, although they are at least equally remote.

In my observations, countries and reserves which restrict independent tourism and mandate "official" visits are often very poor, and also stay very poor. Part of the problem that the local "gold mine" of tourists inevitably gets monopolized by a local clique. This monopoly leads to all the poor service, stagnation, poor conservation and divide between haves and have-nots usually associated with monopolies.

I personally would not support conservation projects (including Galapagos) which include restricting independent travellers. Both because of personal egoism as (formerly) an independent traveller, and because of the bad effects it produces in the longer term.

Last edited by jurek : Saturday 13th April 2019 at 11:01.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th April 2019, 18:44   #41
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,608
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
We not yet discussed that some places have very poor infrastructure or actually force "official" visit with a guide. There is no way to see Uganda gorillas or Galapagos or Komodo truly "independently". At the same time, most other islets in Indonesia can be birded independently, although they are at least equally remote.

In my observations, countries and reserves which restrict independent tourism and mandate "official" visits are often very poor, and also stay very poor. Part of the problem that the local "gold mine" of tourists inevitably gets monopolized by a local clique. This monopoly leads to all the poor service, stagnation, poor conservation and divide between haves and have-nots usually associated with monopolies.

I personally would not support conservation projects (including Galapagos) which include restricting independent travellers. Both because of personal egoism as (formerly) an independent traveller, and because of the bad effects it produces in the longer term.
How does Komodo restrict the independant traveller?

When I did it about twenty yeras ago, I walked down to the small boat dock in Labuan Bajo on Flores and negotiated for a boat, just me. There was the skipper and his mate and me, sleeping on a mat on the deck. A guide is essential here for safety as much as anything else but I can't see how I wasn't independant?

Gorillas, how would you open that up without compromising the safety of travellers and above all, Gorillas? Safety aside,the guides track them all the time and you'd never find them if they didn't.?

Some places have to be managed but there are examples of a 'stich up' where the locals have made a convenient 'law' that stops you birding without a guide. Tangkoko on Sulawesi is one such place where the 'Local Guides Association' have managed to manipulate it so that you cannot go in to the park without a guide, it's only them that have made this rule, not sure anyone has seriously tested it by going in unaccompanied.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 15th April 2019, 10:53   #42
kitefarrago
Registered User
 
kitefarrago's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 2,417
I'm not sure that allowing independent travellers to go wherever they please would combine well with the aims of conservation in some parts of the world. Would you really like every cruise ship or yacht to be able to stop everywhere they please, any time they please, and visit any of the Galapagos islands?

I do think that there are conversation efforts where it is desirable to restrict access as part of a scheme.

But also I do think that if we in the West ask people elsewhere to conserve whatever wild areas remain under their governance we have to provide an answer to the question how local people can benefit from such decisions. If they cut it all down for palm oil they have an income for at least a limited period of time, so I think this is a valid question. One way of ensuring that locals do benefit is to make rules that force visitors to employ them in some capacity. (I do appreciate that such arrangements are open to some kind of stitch up, and there are implementations of such schemes that don't do much, if anything, to benefit the locals.)

Most of the people on this forum are rich when compared with average earnings across the entire world population. I think demanding that others preserve wilderness areas (which we largely failed to do ourselves) and allow us to access them as we please is somewhat arrogant.

The fact that there is a lot of corruption and mismanagement in the world does not negate this.

Andrea
kitefarrago is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 15th April 2019, 13:28   #43
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,608
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitefarrago;3838868[B
]I'm not sure that allowing independent travellers to go wherever they please would combine well with the aims of conservation in some parts of the world. Would you really like every cruise ship or yacht to be able to stop everywhere they please, any time they please, and visit any of the Galapagos islands?
[/b]
I do think that there are conversation efforts where it is desirable to restrict access as part of a scheme.

But also I do think that if we in the West ask people elsewhere to conserve whatever wild areas remain under their governance we have to provide an answer to the question how local people can benefit from such decisions. If they cut it all down for palm oil they have an income for at least a limited period of time, so I think this is a valid question. One way of ensuring that locals do benefit is to make rules that force visitors to employ them in some capacity. (I do appreciate that such arrangements are open to some kind of stitch up, and there are implementations of such schemes that don't do much, if anything, to benefit the locals.)

Most of the people on this forum are rich when compared with average earnings across the entire world population. I think demanding that others preserve wilderness areas (which we largely failed to do ourselves) and allow us to access them as we please is somewhat arrogant.

The fact that there is a lot of corruption and mismanagement in the world does not negate this.

Andrea
I agree totally with your first paragraph.

Palm oil is not something that's run on a small farm scale as far as I'm aware, all the plantations I've seen are enormous and owned by huge companies so this is only for the benefit of the already rich.

The example I gave of a 'stictch up', the 'guides' all have other livelihoods and guiding is a secondary income.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 15th April 2019, 16:59   #44
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
 
Nutcracker's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 17,478
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
How does Komodo restrict the independant traveller?
You get eaten by the dragons?
Nutcracker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 15th April 2019, 20:37   #45
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Switzerland/Poland
Posts: 3,969
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitefarrago View Post
If they cut it all down for palm oil they have an income for at least a limited period of time, so I think this is a valid question. One way of ensuring that locals do benefit is to make rules that force visitors to employ them in some capacity.
Well meaning but naive approach. More often than not, locals can count. And realize they might earn money from tourism, but earn even more money from palm oil.

Let me show my point on proof.

Masuria, Poland, can force thousands of tourist boats not to moor in prohibited places. Why Galapagos cannot?

I could wander alone in places inhabited by mountain lions, grey wolves and grizzly and polar bears in Alaska and Canada. And the concept that everybody is responsible for own safety was natural. Why national parks in Africa restrict the same?

I could freely walk in the forest inhabited by wild orangutans in Kinabatangan and Sepilok (not to mention sun bears, king cobras and elephants), and orangutans were fine and healthy. Why gorillas in Africa could not?

Spain and Thailand got rich on tourism without forcing tourists to pay obligatory guides or special higher tourist proces. Why Africa cannot?

It often seems justified for a conservationist to ban and prohibit tourists from everything, or to charge them extravagant prices. Those brutal unwashed tourists are danger to our nice and gentle wildlife! The few examples above prove this is not a good idea in the long term.

Last edited by jurek : Monday 15th April 2019 at 20:39.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 15th April 2019, 22:17   #46
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
 
Nutcracker's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 17,478
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
I could wander alone in places inhabited by mountain lions, grey wolves and grizzly and polar bears in Alaska and Canada. And the concept that everybody is responsible for own safety was natural. Why national parks in Africa restrict the same?
African wildlife is a lot more dangerous, and at higher density
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
I could freely walk in the forest inhabited by wild orangutans in Kinabatangan and Sepilok (not to mention sun bears, king cobras and elephants), and orangutans were fine and healthy. Why gorillas in Africa could not?
Gorillas are more closely related to us (and Chimps even more so) than Orangs, so at greater risk of catching our diseases.
Nutcracker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 16th April 2019, 12:45   #47
Adun
Registered User
 
Adun's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Colombia
Posts: 50
I can see jurek's point, but I can't stop seeing it as part of a bigger human set of very complex issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
Masuria, Poland, can force thousands of tourist boats not to moor in prohibited places. Why Galapagos cannot?
Swiss citizens can freely enter Ecuador without a Visa. ¿Why can't Ecuadorian citizens do the same in Switzerland?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
I could wander alone ... in Alaska and Canada. And the concept that everybody is responsible for own safety was natural. Why national parks in Africa restrict the same?
¿Why can't African humans wander just as freely as you do, in Alaska and Canada?

I'd bet most of those local guides in poor countries that do have such laws, have a low chance of being granted a visa to set a foot on the EU or US.

I'm all for letting every human wander freely, it would be a step in the right direction. Let's allow those African and Syrian birders take a peek at European and north American endemics.
Adun is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 16th April 2019, 13:37   #48
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
 
Nutcracker's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 17,478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun View Post
¿Why can't African humans wander just as freely as you do, in Alaska and Canada?
Point taken about visas, but that's not what's at issue here - it is the national parks, not the streets of African cities. Here's why entering African national parks on your own might not be a good idea: this person tried, and didn't succeed very well . . .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-47843999
Nutcracker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 16th April 2019, 13:46   #49
Dortmundbirder
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Dortmund
Posts: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
Well meaning but naive approach. More often than not, locals can count. And realize they might earn money from tourism, but earn even more money from palm oil.

Let me show my point on proof.

Masuria, Poland, can force thousands of tourist boats not to moor in prohibited places. Why Galapagos cannot?

I could wander alone in places inhabited by mountain lions, grey wolves and grizzly and polar bears in Alaska and Canada. And the concept that everybody is responsible for own safety was natural. Why national parks in Africa restrict the same?

I could freely walk in the forest inhabited by wild orangutans in Kinabatangan and Sepilok (not to mention sun bears, king cobras and elephants), and orangutans were fine and healthy. Why gorillas in Africa could not?

Spain and Thailand got rich on tourism without forcing tourists to pay obligatory guides or special higher tourist proces. Why Africa cannot?

It often seems justified for a conservationist to ban and prohibit tourists from everything, or to charge them extravagant prices. Those brutal unwashed tourists are danger to our nice and gentle wildlife! The few examples above prove this is not a good idea in the long term.
I can answer you to the Gorilla case at least, as I ahve experienced it last year in Uganda on my own.
First of all, you would probably not see any Gorilla at all without the guided organization they are delivering there and probably would get lost in the forest of Bwindi if you ever leave the few trails they are having.
Personally the experiecne I have been getting there was really a once in a lifetime and worth every cent. But that is my personal opinion of course.

If there wouldnt be the Gorilla "Industry" there probably wouldnt be any forest left, it would be logged down and converted into farmland, as it have been done in the surrounding.
There are several communities making their livings of the gorillas and conservation is poor countries is often very simple. Do I earn more money by protecting or by destroying the Nature. Therefore Iam happy to support local communities which are the best way to ensure, that the nature is being protected. I was very impressed by the organization of the Ugandan Wildlife Authority, which would not be possible without the way it was done here. And therestriction was in Kibale and Bwindi Forest, where you have been walking. Driving without a guide in the savanna National parks was not a problem at all.

Third. Simply safety issues. For you and for the animals.
I think in this case poaching is not very common anymore in Uganda but non habituated gorillas and elephants are a safety issue for the people. And people are a safety issue for the gorillas. Let it be alone on possible diseases that are going to spread on the animals when you would be that lucky to encounter a habituated group on your own.

I fully understand the point, that someone doesnt like the "programm" which is delivered by guides and like it more exploring the sites on their own. I include myself on that. Iam doing indepently what I can. But I think in some cases it is very necessary to do so.
__________________
Last Lifers 1168 ( Asian Desert Warbler, Tawny-Winged Woodcreeper, Tropical Pewee)
Dortmundbirder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Day trips birding in Vietnam? Simon Wates Vietnam 26 Friday 16th February 2018 11:42
Birding trips Colin.wood2 Companions for Birding Trips 0 Thursday 12th October 2017 14:33
Day birding trips in KL Nick French Malaysia 1 Thursday 8th December 2011 03:58
Birding on ski trips? breffni Vacational Trip Reports 13 Thursday 24th March 2005 19:27
birding trips abroad jdbirdman Birds & Birding 5 Sunday 18th May 2003 12:23

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.27863503 seconds with 38 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 20:25.