What is the best camouflage jacket (& trousers) that money can buy? (1 Viewer)

Hello

I need to buy a new jacket for birdwatching. I want it to be:
- Quiet/soft/not rustling much (to not scare wildlife with noise)
- STAY waterproof over time (unlike Gortex et al)
- Light-ish (for hillwalking)
- Must have excellent venting (for when climbing 'the hill' in Scotland)
- Camouflage colours

Budget: Unlimited

I do QUITE like Paramo because they are soft, don't rustle much, are extremely breathable (way better than any Gortex), and are more or less indestructible due to the fact that they do not have a membrane.

BUT Paramo do not seem to make a camouflage version... at all! Plus extremely limited range of colour for trousers. They also seem to need quite a lot of treatment with Nicwax and I'm not 100% sure how well the stand up to extreme wind & rain - particularly if they get at all dirty. Moreover they aren't all that light. And their under-arm venting is often too small to really work properly and is hard to operate with only one hand. All in all IMHO Paramo is good but not as good as it should be.

J

Jack pike do fishing jackets and trousers.Go outdoors stock them

Cheers.

Steve.

I don't think there's anything on the market that satisfies all your criteria. In particular, there's a conflict between lightweight and long-lasting that hasn't been solved yet.

For my money Paramo comes closest. I agree on the weight and on the temperature issue. I don't wear my Paramo waterproof above 10C.But when it's significantly warmer than that I have one of their lightweight windproof jackets that is certainly showerproof when treated, and getting a bit wet isn't a problem when its warm enough. I don't treat mine more often than once a year and I can live with that.

As far as the colours go, are you aware of the `Naturally Paramo' range? These clothes don't come in camouflage patterns, but they do come in the brown/olive/green colours that are considerably more natural.

I appreciate that this isn't the answer you were looking for, but it's the best one I can think of.

Andrea

Even though I don't think they come in camouflage patterns I'd have thought that ventile jackets/trousers should be worth a look - see http://www.countryinnovation.com/ventile/show/all

Alternatively Hilltrek will do made-to-measure versions of their Glencoe jacket (and you could always ask about camo pattern)
http://www.hilltrek.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Glencoe_Double_Ventile_Jacket.html

Personally, I'm not convinced a 'camo' pattern jacket offers any advantages in normal birding over a plain olive coloured one

I just found this advice from Go Outdoors.
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/expert-advice/waterproof-jackets-guide
Gads! My head is rather spinning with it, but it fails to even mention Ventile (more of which later)

Go Outdoors talk about 3 types of waterproof jacket:
1. Coated [good but not v breathable]
2. Membrane (Goretex, eVent, NeoShell) [good but not quiet]
3. Paramo [v long-lived, although need lots of re-proofing. Also not technically 100% waterproof but on balance generally the comfortable]

I should mention that I do NOT need my jacket to be windproof.


JACK PYKE
Re the Jack Pyke Hunters Jacket
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/jack-pyke-hunters-jacket-p271507
Presumably it is a "Coated" jacket and I have to assume that is it going to be very breathable.

http://www.jackpyke.co.uk/products/soft-shell-jacket.aspx
I presume "soft shell" is similar to coated (??) but either way "soft shells" are said to be not very waterproof and don't do well in heavy rain.

VENTILE (AKA EtaProof)
Yes, I have seen Ventile. It is a super-soft, super-quiet, and super-durable (and super-expensive) cotton jacket - in many way lovely! However the huge problem with ventile seems to be weight. They are heavy-ish before you start, and then when it starts raining the outer layer appears to absorb water. This makes it catastrophically heavy. It also stiffens up horribly. Also very slow to dry. You'll be asking me to wear a Barbour/wax/thorn-proof jacket next!


PARAMO
I know and do like (but not love) Paramo. I want much larger armpit zips. And lighter weight. Does anyone else make something using the same directional pumping principles as Paramo?

Either way, failure to make a camouflage option is a deal-breaker for me.

PERTEX (e.g. Buffalo)
I have heard good things about Pertex - although I am confused about it not being fully waterproof

Thanks

J (OP)


P.S. One last thing - it seems to me that REALLY good vents (e.g. massive armpit vents) does solve a lot of problems, it's just that they seem very hard to find for some reason.

John Cantelo said:

Personally, I'm not convinced a 'camo' pattern jacket offers any advantages in normal birding over a plain olive coloured one

Click to expand...

In many situations, if a bird can see your face it may make little difference. However common sense says that what is hard for the human eye to see is LIKELY to be hard for wildlife to see.

* * *

I had an jaw-dropping experience once with a strange quirk of bird perception to do with shape the other day.

I was standing a few feet behind a large 5-bar steel gate into a field. Some finches fly in sideways from behind the wall. And they started feeding a few feet the other side of the gate. i.e. I was only a total of only about 10-12 feet away from the finches. I could see them clearly. And surely they could see the whole of my face. Now, in open ground they would have taken flight at say 25-50 yards, but something about the way the bars of the gate broke up my outline meant that they simply did not register in their brains as "human".

Since then I have often piles loose vegetation over me when sitting stationary for a long time so as to break up my outline. Seems to work reasonably well. Fwiw, I also remember seeing a TV presenter doing the same trick (Bill Oddie??) after his assistant almost completely buried him in vegetation with the result that a little king fisher landed on a small branch he was holding in his hand.

I may be incorrect, but my working conclusion remains that bird's perception system isn't all that hard to "hack" so long as there is no noise, and no movement.

Have you considered army surplus suppliers? You can get Goretex smocks and trousers in a variety of camouflage patterns. Though they're called smocks, they're actually jackets rather than the "pullover"-type smocks. they can be bought brand new, not just second hand. I've got an old jacket in this style, although not Goretex. It's a generous cut with plenty of room to manoeuvre (I take an approx 50" chest, so it can sometimes be difficult to find jackets with enough room, especially across the shoulders). It may not be what you're looking for, but it may be worth a look.

Cheers

Field craft will always win over camouflage, so I wouldn't be too fussed about that. The disadvantage of camouflage is that you will like a twonk/hunter when off the hill and if you visit many third world countries the police may well shoot you!

That aside, as others have said, lightweight and durable are usually opposites. Paramo is very hot and needs precise care to keep it working, Ventile will last a lifetime of abuse but to be truly waterproof needs to be double layer which is very heavy when wet. Most high-end manufacturers don't make camouflage and fall largely into two camps, hunting/shooting types that use inter membrane more durable but warmer and mountaineering types that use a shell and are lighter but less durable. I would go for light weight every time and just expect that it won't last for ever.

If you definitely want camouflage then you could go for a ghille oversuit, that way you can whip it off when you reach polite company.

> Field craft will always win over camouflage, so I wouldn't be too fussed about that.
Sorry I don't understand this sentence. What do you mean by "field craft". According to Wikipedia "Fieldcraft is the tactical skill to operate stealthily ... these skills include camouflage"

> The disadvantage of camouflage is that you will like a twonk/hunter when off the hill
With a nod to Richard Feynman "what do I care what other people think?" That's their problem. In any case I shall mostly be in extremely remote areas.


> and if you visit many third world countries the police may well shoot you!
Fair point! but not planning go abroad with jacket.

Ventile will need to be double to cope with heavy rain. However double Ventile is way too heavy. And I find it hard to believe that Paramo is any hotter than double Ventile.

Now I'm confused. What is the difference between an "inter membrane" and a "shell"? Is a shell coated? I thought membranes were the likes of goretex and much used by mountaineers...

Shooting types in my experience seem to use barbours and strange tweet based things that get heavy esp in the wet and may/may not have some sort of hidden membrane inside.

I agree that Paramo can be rather hot, due to its 2 layer construction. I was hoping that the modern lighter weight Paramos might have been better at this due to thinner materials. Also I was hoping that they might have really large armpit vents.

Things may have improved but I have always found the more durable Gortex jackets to be extremely sweaty due to being nothing like as air permeable as Paramo. I am told that Neoshell jackets are also pretty air permeable however.

On the other hand what I dislike about all membrane and coated jackets is that one brush against gorse and they are effectively ruined by all the punctures.

If you tromp around and walk against the skyline no amount of camouflage will help but with sufficient stealth it doesn't really matter what you are wearing, within reason.

When using a waterproof membrane there, such as Goretex there are various ways to do it: stick it between two layers of fabric, less breathable but harder wearing and less insulative: stick it on the inside of the outer fabric and hang a loose lining behind it, more breathable but heavier and warmer: stick it on a thin fabric and hang it between the outer and liner of your choice, the only advantage of this technique is that it lets you use more exotic fabrics. Most topline outdoor jackets use the first method while hunting jackets tend to use the second or third.

How about this http://harkila.com/products/jackets/stealth-short-jacket#.VjEADkZwbq0

Sorry for the broken link above. Try this one.

Paramo do a smock that has two zips running down the entire side from just below the armpit, and that certainly allows for excellent venting. It does come in moss and weights in at just 600gr (it's a lighter version of their usual fabric). Maybe this would suit your needs?

When you say `camouflage option', do you mean a camouflage pattern, or are you just looking for colours that blend in? If you want the former then you are pretty much limited to those who mainly supply the fishing/hunting/nature phogography fraternities. However, those applications are usually meant for people who don't move around much, but stay in one place. I think their typical requirements don't fit well with your desire to wear the same gear when hillwalking in Scotland.

Andrea

Mono said:

If you tromp around and walk against the skyline no amount of camouflage will help but with sufficient stealth it doesn't really matter what you are wearing, within reason.

Click to expand...

Yes, of course it all depends how high the bird/wildlife in question is.

If you are against the skyline you should wear white to match the bright sky as much as possible. I have always assumed that is the reason why the underside of bird wings are often pale. In fact it it probably the reason when a barn owl is so white. Likewise most sea birds such as gulls & gannets.

The trouble is the very minute your outline is against greenery then you will stick out hideously.

The ultimate answer is to do what fish do - which is to have vertically aligned mirrors so that you reflect sky when looking from below and you reflect the ground nearby when looked at from above. The key problem is keeping the alignment of said all mirrors roughly vertical.

kitefarrago said:

Sorry for the broken link above. Try this one.

Paramo do a smock that has two zips running down the entire side from just below the armpit, and that certainly allows for excellent venting. It does come in moss and weights in at just 600gr (it's a lighter version of their usual fabric). Maybe this would suit your needs?

When you say `camouflage option', do you mean a camouflage pattern, or are you just looking for colours that blend in? If you want the former then you are pretty much limited to those who mainly supply the fishing/hunting/nature photography fraternities. However, those applications are usually meant for people who don't move around much, but stay in one place. I think their typical requirements don't fit well with your desire to wear the same gear when hillwalking in Scotland.

Andrea

Click to expand...

Re the paramo smock - can you remember what it's called? (I cant work out what the word smock really means!)

Re camouflage - I really mean a camouflage pattern. i.e. Something that breaks up your outline making you harder to see. It's not for no reason that the armed forces use camouflage. And sorry but don't try an tell me that soldiers never move around much! Yes you are pretty visible when moving but the instant you stop moving (e.g. to look at or photograph something!) you become very much less visible.

It seems clear to me that pure snobbish is at play here. And it sounds like this is the real reason why Paramo don't do camouflage. i.e. Because they don't want to be confused with blood sports, military/army surplus and all that 'grubby' world.

FWIW, this is the same reason why larger more luxurious makes of car never make 'hatchback' versions of themselves - i.e. they only do salons (with a boot) OR full-sized estates, and they never do a shorter length hatchback '5 door', simply because they don't want to be called 'a hatchback'. The net result is that it's extremely hard (impossible?) to find a really nice, quiet, fast, luxurious car that you can stick a fridge into the back of AND that's easy to park. Go figure!

shiphen said:

The ultimate answer is to do what fish do - which is to have vertically aligned mirrors so that you reflect sky when looking from below and you reflect the ground nearby when looked at from above. The key problem is keeping the alignment of said all mirrors roughly vertical.

Click to expand...

http://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/mirror-suit
You did say price was no object! ;-)

You asked for a direct link to the smock, and here it is .

But it's not in a camouflage pattern, and you said that's a deal breaker for you. You're also beginning to misinterpret what people are telling you: I said that you may want to look at companies that specialiaze in hunting/fishing/nature photography. And I was trying to point out that quite a ibt of the gear they produce is for people who spend long times sitting very quietly, and that has different requirements from hill walking.

But I've just had another idea that might suit you, since you said that cost is no issue. Arcteryx have a line for military/police applications, and they do indeed to camouflage patterns. Since you want something waterproof I think you want a hardshell, so have a look here. The two shells pictured in camouflage pattern do have `pit zips', as the Americans call them, but I don't konw how long these are.

Camouflage patterns were invented to counter the human eye. Many birds can see in the ultra-violet spectrum and how they perceive the world is quite different to what we see. In my experience it is movement that affects birds much more than colours.

Andrea

smock = anorak

I have to agree with Andrea that it is movement foremost that catches the attention of birds; oftentimes negatively from a birder's perspective. However, sometimes the birds react positively. Talking can also put off birds. I usually bird alone and walk slowly and silently, and often stop altogether for several minutes at a time. I regularly have birds land at my feet and some even follow me for quite a distance. I usually do wear muted clothing, but do not worry so much if I happen to be wearing brighter colors. In fact, where I live, a bit of bright red or orange will readily attract hummingbirds.

I also notice that if I stop and remain motionless after another person(s) pass me on a trail, the birds will quickly resume their activities and seem not to even notice me. I believe their attention got focused on the motion of the people moving through and they no longer perceive my motionless form as a threat.

I do believe that proper camouflage has its place in birding, especially bird photography and for those species easily disturbed (those that are hunted for example). But, even when wearing camouflage, it is still best to restrict movement. In effect, wearable camouflage serves the purpose of a hide. A muted-color poncho may work as well. My problem with camouflage is that one particular color pattern may work well in one particular environment, but not another. So, how many patterns would I need to own? Too much trouble for my way of birding.

Some references:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2674079/

Camouflage and perceptual organization in the animal kingdom

To get clear about my requirements. I will be both taking a lot of exercise (climbing 'the hill) and then sitting still.

Thanks for the Paramo link. Ah OK a "smock" doesn't have zip up all the way the front, right. Sorry no, although I've never actually tried such a design, I've always thought they look likely to over heat during an up-hill climb. On balance I would prefer both huge pit zips and a zip all the way down the front.

Arcteryx looks intriguing - although wow! I had no idea that it was possible to spend that sort of money - £760 on a jacket! But cost aside I love all the design features - waterproof zippers - huge pockets etc.

HOWEVER it seems that is actually made of Goretex albeit an "exceptionally durable" and "highly breathable" flavour called "MN40r-X GORE-TEX® 3L". I wouldnt want to walk through a gorse bush in that £760 jacket - as I suspect that it will be ruined in seconds. I also remain suspicious that Goretex of any variety will fail to be as air permeable (read "allow water vapour to escape") as the likes of Paramo.

Regarding bird vision, yes I understand at least some see in UV as well. However I think it possible but extremely unlikely that they would not see colour at all soo - otherwise why would they bother evolving such bright colours? (e.g. bluetit, woodpecker, redstart, king fisher etc etc)

Interestingly though some birds may be able to see colour but not very strongly - as I have heard it said that birds of prey see in black and white to help them locate prey. This sounds like an urban myth. Not sure. Although for nocturnal birds this may be true - or more likely NEARLY true.

Re UV yes it explains how birds like blackbirds and bluetits can tell which sex each other are. However I am at the limits of my knowledge. Maybe some of the dyes used work in UV wavelengths too - who knows?

Re the camouflage used by Arcteryx - for that sort of money it's a disgrace that the camouflage patterns dont cross the front of the chest - i.e. where possible it should be made from one piece of material. Also the zipper should probably be better hidden with flaps. The huge visual line that the zipper makes down the middle is unnecessary and unacceptable for that sort of money! Someone should have a word with them...

The rather pale overall colouring of the Arcteryx seem better designed for the Middle East desert than the UK hillside/forests. Obviously it all depends what sort of greenery you are likely to be seen against. Either way nonetheless you want something that:
A) breaks up your outline fairly aggressively
B) when seen close up still tricks the eye into not seeing a flat surface

Interesting stuff. Meanwhile I wonder what if any research has been done testing camouflage on birdlife.

bfoutch said:

I also notice that if I stop and remain motionless after another person(s) pass me on a trail, the birds will quickly resume their activities and seem not to even notice me. I believe their attention got focused on the motion of the people moving through and they no longer perceive my motionless form as a threat.

Click to expand...

Reminds me of Eric Hosking describing in one of his books how birds can count. I think it was a pair of ravens (highly intelligent as we know) that were particularly troublesome even when someone let him to his hide and he stayed in it.

Eventually he solved the problem by getting an entire class of school children to visit his hide and he stayed put afterwards and the ravens settled down nicely!

shiphen - My experience with Goretex has been less than stellar. No matter how much I spent or what brand I bought, they have always leaked over time. Usually, in much too short a time. My view is that there is no garment that provides a works-for-every-situation solution when it come to outer wear, especially if staying waterproof is a criteria. I wish you luck and hope that whatever you decide on works out very well for you.

How birds see color resources:

https://www.google.com/search?q=seeing+color+birds&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=birds+seeing+color+pdf

https://www.barnowl.co.uk/upload/docs/593/an_owls_vision.pdf

> My experience with Goretex has been less than stellar. No matter
> how much I spent or what brand I bought, they have always leaked
> over time

Me too. [grrr]

I do still quite like Paramo and am happy with the level of waterproofness they seem to offers. I would very much prefer a camouflage version, although the seems not to be an option. :^(

I may be forced to buy Paramo again being as they last so well. Certainly a £700 jacket made of gortex that "probably wont last" and is probably very rustling too isn't a sensible option.

However the Paramo that I had (I seem to have lost it v annoyingly) was somewhat heavy and hot. Maybe their new ones are a bit thinner & lighter. :^/



There was talk of a Montane jacket that works on similar principles to Paramo although I cant find it.