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French Tit (1 Viewer)

W

Wizzle

Well-known member
OK I will be honest from the off here - I want this to be Marsh Tit!

I can't rule out Coal Tit as nape is not visible and it does appear to have that somewhat scruffy look that you can get with Coal Tits. But can't see start of any white wing bars and central France is on the border of Coal Tit year-round-territory.

As for Willow or Marsh (I did not hear it), looks quite brown above and cheeks are not very white - so it must be Marsh Tit, yes? o:D (please).

Thanks for help.
 

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lou salomon said:
the other contender would be willow, not coal tit, wizzle. it looks exxtremely bull-necked but could be either of the 2.
Click to expand...

Hi Lou, you can't have your specs on this evening, as I had got it down to Willow or Marsh.

I do think this is one of those birds that I will never know for sure between willow or marsh.
 
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Looks like the branches are in focus and not the subject Wizzle. On that note, the ID may never resolve. Evidence here is confusing. There are no final pointers to ID.
And Lou? LOL! I never knew you had to put SPECS on to give advice on ID! ? ;)

Oh Boy! I need opticians I know it! B :):-O3:)
 
I would lean to Willow Tit here: as said Lou, bully neck, compact, rounded body. Also dirty throat, long white cheeks effect.
 
There is no constrast that I can see between white of cheeks and white neck sides. The bib is diffuse and extending fairly far, both pro Willow features but certainly not enough for a positive id.
 
phil baber said:
And Lou? LOL! I never knew you had to put SPECS on to give advice on ID! ? ;)
Click to expand...

Not for advice no! If you read properly, you will note that I was referring to the fact that Lou's first reply (p2) appears to suggest that I had not considered Willow Tit, which I clearly did in p1 !!!
 
After extensive research by the BTO at Sculthorpe in Norfolk of Willow and Marsh Tit, the only way to identify a Willow over a Marsh in the field is the beak (all black on Willow, small white patch at the base on Marsh) and that Willow have a pale wing panel. Plus of course if you hear the bird call!

Features such as bull-neck etc. are not indicators of either species.

Neither of these features can be seen in the photograph, so you will not be able to positively ID this bird!
 
Bilvo said:
After extensive research by the BTO at Sculthorpe in Norfolk of Willow and Marsh Tit, the only way to identify a Willow over a Marsh in the field is the beak (all black on Willow, small white patch at the base on Marsh) and that Willow have a pale wing panel. Plus of course if you hear the bird call!

Features such as bull-neck etc. are not indicators of either species.

Neither of these features can be seen in the photograph, so you will not be able to positively ID this bird!
Click to expand...

As expected, thanks.
 
Bilvo said:
After extensive research by the BTO at Sculthorpe in Norfolk of Willow and Marsh Tit, the only way to identify a Willow over a Marsh in the field is the beak (all black on Willow, small white patch at the base on Marsh) and that Willow have a pale wing panel. Plus of course if you hear the bird call!
Click to expand...

The definitive identification paper was in British Birds a few years ago - http://www.britishbirds.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Willow-Marsh-Tits.pdf

But this wasn't anything to do with the BTO or Norfolk/Sculthorpe. The French race of Marsh Tit is the same as in western France, and the Willow Tit race is very similar to ours.

I think this bird is probably a Marsh Tit, as the cheeks don't show much contrast with the back. I was watching a singing Marsh Tit today, and when singing it fluffed up its head a lot, so I don't think you can take bull-headedness as a factor. And anyway, the paper discredits this feature.

Aren't Willow Tits very rare in central France?
 
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AlfArbuthnot said:
Aren't Willow Tits very rare in central France?
Click to expand...

I've just been looking at the maps and the Willow Tit would be a rarity in west/central France as it is outside of normal range. Marsh Tits are common with their range extending throughout France and into northern Spain.
 
Bilvo said:
After extensive research by the BTO at Sculthorpe in Norfolk of Willow and Marsh Tit, the only way to identify a Willow over a Marsh in the field is the beak (all black on Willow, small white patch at the base on Marsh) and that Willow have a pale wing panel. Plus of course if you hear the bird call!

Features such as bull-neck etc. are not indicators of either species.

Neither of these features can be seen in the photograph, so you will not be able to positively ID this bird!
Click to expand...

Although the pale spot on the upper mandible of the Marsh Tit is a good id feature, even that can be tricky as light reflection can play its part. As for the pale wing panel in the Willow Tit, again this can be unreliable. Fresh Marsh Tits can show a hint of pale panel and worn Willow Tits can show no pale in the wing.
 
Bilvo said:
After extensive research by the BTO at Sculthorpe in Norfolk of Willow and Marsh Tit, the only way to identify a Willow over a Marsh in the field is the beak

Features such as bull-neck etc. are not indicators of either species.
Click to expand...

AlfArbuthnot said:
I don't think you can take bull-headedness as a factor. And anyway, the paper discredits this feature.
Click to expand...

If you are in a fortunate position to be seeing both species on a everyday basis, then (regardless of what some papers might say) they are usually easy to separate regardless of whether the bill spot is seen or not. Bull-headed appearance (partly an illusion created by the more distinct cheeks 'pushing further back', ie not merging) is a useful part of the process.
 
I agree with Jos. When I was living in Belgium, both were in the garden and we could identify them at first sight, often before using the binoculars, with the jizz (ID checked and confirmed by calls).
 
Jos Stratford said:
Bull-headed appearance (partly an illusion created by the more distinct cheeks 'pushing further back', ie not merging) is a useful part of the process.
Click to expand...

The British Birds paper (linked above) says of bull-headedness - "The larger pale cheek area and longer contour feathers of the Willow Tit (Harrap & Quinn 1995) may generate this effect, which is nevertheless highly subjective and heavily reliant on posture and ‘fluffing up’ of the plumage", which I think is what you're saying? (They'd look similar to you in silhouette?)
 
AlfArbuthnot said:
The British Birds paper (linked above) says of bull-headedness - "The larger pale cheek area and longer contour feathers of the Willow Tit (Harrap & Quinn 1995) may generate this effect, which is nevertheless highly subjective and heavily reliant on posture and ‘fluffing up’ of the plumage", which I think is what you're saying? (They'd look similar to you in silhouette?)
Click to expand...

I'll not dispute that it may largely be an effect of the cheeks rather than a reality, but I personally would not say it is highly subjective or heavily reliant on posture or fluffing up (*) - as with Valery, it is comparitively rare that much more than a brief glance even without binoculars is required to separate the two species. When you're seeing both species with frequency, this bull-headed appearance, coupling with a combination of other features, in my experience, usually leads to near instant identification based on jizz.


* but would say it probably more subjective or reliant on posture when looking at a single photograph of an individual, i.e. as we usually get on Bird Forum.
 
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Wasn't that paper refering to the differences between British Marsh and Willow? The local Marsh is probably palustris or an intermediate between palustris and dresseri. The Willow is also most likely an intermediate that probably looks like something between kleinschmidti (Britain) and borealis (Fenno-Scandia) and they are probably geographically variable. I don't know where such precise literature can be found for local continental birds and their variations, but there is a fair few countries in between so I can only imagine the variety is quite large.
 
Andy Hurley said:
Wasn't that paper refering to the differences between British Marsh and Willow? The local Marsh is probably palustris or an intermediate between palustris and dresseri. The Willow is also most likely an intermediate that probably looks like something between kleinschmidti (Britain) and borealis (Fenno-Scandia) and they are probably geographically variable. I don't know where such precise literature can be found for local continental birds and their variations, but there is a fair few countries in between so I can only imagine the variety is quite large.
Click to expand...

Western French Marsh Tits are dresseri - the same as British. Willow in France is rhenanus, which is marginally cleaner-looking than kleinschmidti but is the closest to it.

I think Jos Stratford would be getting borealis Willows and palustris Marsh?
 
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