Advice needed on which binocular for general wildlife use (1 Viewer)

Hi all,

I found this forum last night, while searching for info on binoculars. I've spent a good number of hours reading and it's given me some help, but I need more...

I want a binocular for general use while out in the countryside; might be birding in woods, watching foxes at dusk, bat spotting around church steeples or spying on the herons on the other side of a lake. Anything goes really; hope you don't mind that it's not just birding but this looks the most informative place I've found to ask. Most of the places my wife and I get to don't have so many trees, it's more often moorland and hillsides. Given the types of use I envisage, I've come up with some features that I think are important.

My budget is up to around £400; I could probably go a bit higher for something significantly better. I would rather pay more for something I'm happy with, than save a bit and be unhappy. I'm not particularly bothered about brand names, and would consider well cared for used items. I'm a bit wary of buying on eBay though - been stung before there!

So, my supposed criteria:

• 10x magnification, given longer distance use on hills and moors.
• Maybe 50mm objectives for light gathering at dawn/dusk.
• Preferably light weight and relatively compact, but I know this conflicts with above.
• Waterproof and fogproof.
• Good resolution - I still have quite sharp eyesight (20/10 to 20/15 last I checked).
• Minimal chromatic aberration.
• Reliable build quality and a decent warranty.

Just a few that I've seen myself are Vortex Viper 10x50, Nikon 10x56 Monarch ATB, and I might have a chance at a used Leica 8x42 BA Trinovid at around £450.

I'm aware of optical properties in general (I have an ancient 8" SCT with binoviewer for astronomy) but really need advice from those who have actual experience with some decent binoculars to narrow the search. My criteria aren't fixed - if a certain 8x42 would give a better experience for my use than a 10x50, so much the better.

Cheers,
Rick.

hi rick and welcome

i found myself pretty much in the same boat as you about a year ago. i new what i wanted but was completely baffled with hundreds of binoculars to choose from unfortunatly there is an awfull lot of bad stuff out there and i bought some of it.
£400 should get you a fine pair of binoculars and away from most of the rubish stuff, thats not to say there arnt a few good bins out there for less but i eventually settled for after looking through dozens of pairs of binoculars a pair of opticron "imagic" BGA SE 8x42 roof prism binoculars costing £359 new. i did compare them back to back in the shop with a pair of swarovski ed 8.5x42's costing £1000 and couldnt really see any differance, they were and still are IMO the best roof prism bins in there size and price range and are ideal for general use, superbly sharp(i also have very good vision), very good in low light (i've used these at night and can see detail where it apears quite black with the naked eye) and water proof. i think 8x magnification is the ideal for hand held use as 10x can get a little shakey, i had the 10 times version and didnt like them, i can actually see more detail with the slightly lower mag. also 42mm is a good size if your useing them in low light.
mine are not cumbersome to carry around all day and they come with a nice padded wide strap that doesnt cut into your neck.
they have good eye relief if you ware glasses, i dont notice any CA unless i really look for it and then its minnimal at the very edge of fov, they are 100% water proof/fog proof, image was at least imo 99% as sharp as the swaro's costing three times as much they have a good close focus down to 2 meters and only require one full turn of the focus wheel from close to infinity. after 6 months of hard use i just cant fault them, comments i get when i let others have a look through them are pretty much allways the same with things like "WOW" "these are better than my eyes" i have a job to get them back sometimes.
they also have a 30 year waranty
there worth a look if you can get your hands on a pair

regards mark

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the welcome and the recommendation. I've just been reading your opinion of the opticron on cloudynights. I like the sound of it quite a lot and the price is livable with.

I'll try to find a stockist so I can give them a try.

Cheers,
Rick.

Rick,

This really is a pretty informative place. Welcome. If you have spent some time looking, hopefully you found the recent information in the threads listed as CameralandNY Mystery Binocular and the Promaster Infinity ELite ELX ED. The Mystery glass is the ELX HD, we just didn't start off knowing what it was. This has been discussed up, down and sideways here and we're probably not finished with it yet. I have pretty much the same all around use criteria as you do. For the money you will pay for it, the Promaster will not be beaten. The Vortex Viper, Swift Eaglet, and Pentax SP series binoculars are good choices in this price range as well.

There is some discussion as to whether or not the Hawke Frontier ED is basically the same binocular as the Promaster ELX. FrankD has a Promaster ELX and a Hawke ED in the way. Keep your eye on the Promaster Infinity Elite ELX ED thread that is going to be near the top of the forum lists for a while yet. The Hawke may well be easier to come by than the Promaster in he UK.

At any rate, I agree with Mark about the 8x issue. If you're looking very "long" with a binocular, a tripod is a really good idea. My experience with a good 40-42mm binocular is that they are plenty good enough for all around use. If low light use is a significant comonent of your sort of use, then a 50mm will have some advantages. A 50mm however will be heavier than a 42mm and will have less field of view. All other things equal, an 8x will be brighter than a 10x in low light.

A porro prism glass will also typically give you a better image than a similar priced roof. In that regard, a Swift Audubon 8.5x44 would be a decent choice too, in your price range. I will defer to the UK folks on Opticrons and such which are not available in the US.

After reviewing the 8x42 Promaster, that is what I decided to buy for my own all around use.

the ones i bought were the new "imagic" versions, the older BGA SE's look the same but improvements were made to the eyepieses giving a wider 7 degree fov and new coatings were applied to the prisms giving slightly sharper views.
i cant remember most of the other bins i looked at when searching for my new bins but none were noticably better and a most were noticably worse than the opticron imagic BGA SE's... even the more expensive opticron DBA oasis 8x42's costing £200 more didnt seem any better!

Given your criteria: general purpose from woodland to lake watching (for me that's x6 to x10). Light weight and compact. Works well in Northern Europe overcast (and down to twilight).

The 10x would be a pain to use in the woods. The 6x less fun at the lake. A dusk your eye's entrace pupil is not going to be wider than 4mm or so (though you could measure it). So a 5mm exit pupil would be fine.

That sounds like you want a 8x42 (or perhaps a 8x32) rather than a 10x50.

That works with the reduce weight and size (the 32mm objective even more so though perhaps less relaxed in autumn and winter overcast). With modern multicoating the 40ish mm bins are pretty bright. The 50mm only gets you a few minutes extra at dawn and dusk. Or a bigger exit pupil at 10x. Is it worth it for the rest of the time carrying the weight?

Wide FOV would be nice for the woodland work (and just a nice view IMHO) but there are excellent bins out there which are a bit narrower (e.g. Pentax design style is for a flat but narrower FOV).

Good resolution is not going to be an issue at your price point (your eye's acuity is limiting resolution not the objective aperture at these magnifications).

One potential (new, untried but with potential!) bin is the Hawke Frontier ED. FrankD will be posting about it in the near future when his bins arrives. If it's good (we hope it is) it meets your price point at £279. Our expectations have been set recently by the Promaster ELX ED (search for Promaster in this forum to read the threads) though. There seems to be the potential for new quality bins from China that are starting to appear.

I've leave others to recommend some bins (as they know some of the UK specialist brands better and UK prices too) but the Vortex Viper, Nikon Monarch, Pentax SP might be at your price point.

EDIT: Steve, I think it's clear that the Hawke ED and Promaster aren't the same bin: the specs differ enough for that but the ideas are similar. I think that part is the most interesting. There are now two mid-priced ED 8x42 made by a Chinese OEM. There must be more to come.

Steve's suggestion of the Swift 820 or 820ED 8.5x44 porro is another good one (competitive with the Euro 3 roofs especially in the ED version) though I'm not sure about UK prices or if as a full size porro they meets your size requirement (the weight at 24oz should be fine).

EDIT2: The UK price for the Hawke Frontier ED is £279 not £420 well within your price range. Being a British company they seem not to have figured that £=$

also the fov is sharp quite far out, in day time use they "appear" sharp right out to the edge its only when veiwing stars at night that you notice a drop off in sharpness towards the edge, about the last 10% but it isnt distracting. stars are pin sharp in the remaining fov. i like useing them for hand held astronomy as well.
distortion when panning is hardly noticable, most if not all binoculars will magnify slightly more or less at the edge of fov and this can be uncomfortable when panning making you feel woosy but these are very good and i dont really notice it.
anti reflective coatings are very good, its hard to see any detail in your reflection when looking at them in any light and internal reflections are really minimal. there is some glare when the sun light can get into the tubes on bright days but no worse than any bin i've used so far
general build quality is very good being japanese made

best advise i can give really is to get out there like i did and start looking through glass. dissregard price completely and look at everything it'll give you a good bench mark for lower price stuff if you can look through the top end stuff, ziess, lieca and swarows as it'll show up the flaws if their are any in the mid price gear your looking for... imo thats the best way i think to get a good value pair you'll want to take home, use and keep.
it's not just optical quality... its also about finding a pair that "fit" you and thats something you can only do with the bins in your hand and at the eye. good luck.

regards mark

Mark's advice on looking through a lot of bins is excellent advice though I would perhaps caution on looking at the Euro 3 if you can't afford them: they will either inspire or depress you (I've mostly avoided looking!).

I've found with modern bins that at the low mid end (£200 or $200 for some) you now get the "Oooh" feeling (especially if you haven't looked at bins for a decade or more). Once you get over that in the more expensive bins you start to look for more subtle effects that are improved on as you spend more money e.g. the image may be sharp and bright but how does the bin deal with stray light?

Not rushing to buy but getting a feel for a market plus hands on demo experience.

And finally if you can find a dealer with a good return policy where you can buy your final candidates and actually try them out in a realistic environment then return the "losers" in new condition without penalty so much the better. It's sometimes only after a few days with a bin in use that the "internal evaluation" of all of it's pros and cons kicks in and you get the "Return it" or "Keep it" feeling.

Kevin Purcell said:

Mark's advice on looking through a lot of bins is excellent advice...
It's sometimes only after a few days with a bin in use that the "internal evaluation" of all of it's pros and cons kicks in and you get the "Return it" or "Keep it" feeling.

Click to expand...

Hello Kevin,

You are quite right, I dropped $600 on a binocular, only to conclude that we were not meant for each other. I recouped 75% selling it on.


Happy bird watching,
Arthur :egghead:

The used Leicas would be great bins - well worthy of consideration. Optically up there with the very best; just be wary of weight.
A pal of mine has got the Opticrons mentioned and I tried them at the Bird Fair out of curiosity - again, they fared very well, but the light conditions there are always superb - you really need to try some in the conditions you will use them before you decide,

Dan.

i quite often pop up among the dissused china clay pits on the new cycle trails for a spot of star gazing and to save on having to use up the bike light batteries will go up when its still light and wait till it gets dark, of course i'll busy myself with the bins watching rabbits and the occasional fox ect till its properly dark so get a chance to try the bins in every light condition from bright sunshine to almost complete darkness and they perform very well, even on overcast days they appear to show good contrast. the previous bins i used were hawke frontier 10x42 roofs costing £189 and allthough they seemed ok in the shop and were reduced to £109 i took them back. the reason... they were fine if the sun was out but as soon as the light failed if only slightly the view was uneven and i'de spend ages fiddling with focus and diopter to no avail.... horrible

8x42 indeed sounds a sensible compromise for all round use.
If you're OK with 900g or more, a small stretch of your budget might take in some slightly older designs from the top marques (I'm thinking Swarovski SLC, full-size Leica BA/N or Nikon HG) which might be found secondhand at optics dealers. Trouble is, of course, getting to try them.

New top of the range models from Viking and Opticron weigh in at under 700g:
http://www.vikingoptical.co.uk/acatalog/rspb_hd.html
http://www.opticron.co.uk/Pages/binoculars_menu.htm
Opticron models are particularly easy to find. Incidentally the Opticron DBA is probably not much outside budget if at all at the moment; discounting suggests it is about to be discontinued or replaced. Then again, you may well prefer the most recent Imagic model Mark opted for.

i wouldnt be suprised if the DBA was discontinued... it seems to talk the talk in the brouchers but the BGA seems to walk the walk in the field.
i know some swear it's better but having them both in my hands doing a side by side they seem identical... apart from the price, i just cant see why anyone would pay the extra for the DBA? plus i hate click stop diopter adjustment... never seems to "click" in the right spot for me, needs to be somewere inbetween Lol

For your purposes, I would recommend the Swift 8.5 x 44. Either in the HHS Roof Prism version or the Porro Prism Audubon version which has a wider Field of View. You can look at their specificatons on the USA website below. I believe both models are available in England.http://www.eagleoptics.com/index.asp?pid=1156
Cordially,
Bob

the opticrons are lighter 698gms (magnesium bodied), have a wider and established 7 degree fov longer eye relief 22mm, better edge performance (apear sharp right across the fov in daylight) and imo anti reflective coatings (on the objectives at least) have a slightly closer 2m and much quicker one 360 degree turn from close to infinity(although still very pecise) focus than the swifts. you probably wont notice any differance with the extra .5x mag with the swifts but they are about £100 cheaper though

Go to a good optics shop such as Cley Spy in Norfolk, tell them your budget and they will let you look through a suitable range. The "cheap" Zeiss range are very good but it's your eyes and only you can tell what suits you.

Hi Rick
I would recommend the July 07 issue of Bird Watching magazine as they compared 8x42 bins in the mid range price bracket of up to £400.
They tested Audubon, Bushnell x2, Kowa, Minox, Nikon, Pentax, Pyser and RSPB x2.
The RSPB HG's came out on top with a price tag of £399 but they were ran closely by the Minox BL BR £249 and Nikon Monarch DCF for £270.
I myself, was after new bins at the time, looking in this price range and eventually selected the Minox BL BR's and have been extremely satisfied with them ever since. Minox if I am correct ( and I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm not ) were part of Leica so you can be assured that they are a first class product.
There seems to be a void of bins once you go over £400 without spending £800 or more so the mid range market is a fiercely fought one.
The Minox scored 9.5 out of 10 overall value for money tied with the Nikon's. Bear in mind, my Minox can be picked up for just over £200, half the cost of the RSPB HG's so you have to ask the question are the RSPB's twice as good as mine and if so are the Swaros etc four times as good ????
Phew have fun looking and good luck.
PS
My only gripe with my Minox is one of the objective lens covers is a poor fit and falls off too easily a common fault I've since heard so be sure to check if you decide to go with them

Thanks for all the help and advice folks. It's given me a few to look out for when I go shopping. Now it's over to me to try them out.

I'll keep reading the opinions around here as well; the Hawke Frontier ED sounds like it might be interesting...

Almost certainly going to go with something in 8x42.

Cheers,
Rick.

Hi Rick,
I'm not nearly as well versed in all the current models as some of the other forum members, but am a lucky owner of an 8x42 Trinovid BA, one of the binoculars you are considering. I got mine used for US$800, close to what you may have to pay. I use mine almost daily, including owling in deep twilight. Please forgive a rather detailed rant about this particular model.

This binocular is very interesting to use. It does not provide instant gratification, but, rather, has a bit of a learning curve. Its aluminum body ( although magnesium is less dense than aluminum, the metals have virtually the same strength/weight ratio, so making a bino lighter by using the less dense magnesium is folly, it needs to be as heavy as aluminum to be as strong) is about 4 ounces heavier than the current state of the art magnesium or polyamide, at 31 ounces. The thick, bulky, ribbed polyurethane coating, while nice enough to touch for some, and apparently causing unbearable pain for others, is "armor", ie, there primarily for the protection of it, not your personal touching pleasure. The focusing mechanism, unlubricated (for all temperature consistency) brass-against-aluminum, has a tiny bit of sticktion on takeoff, then moves like industrial strength silk, as opposed to greasy flickability. So, to enjoy this instrument, you must become accustomed to the weight, practice grabbing it in a hurry, and use not one, but two fingers on the focus knob. It feels like a weapon that will last forever, and inspires an intangible confidence. But, it is not the modern friendly feel.

Optically, I find it very satisfying. The light transmission of the silvered Schmidt-Pechan prisms is 6-8% less than the current crop of top binos, but its actual performance in deep twilight equals that of the "obviously" brighter 8.5x42 Swarovski EL. In normal daylight it is superbly sharp, contrasty, and resistant to "flare" or intrusion of bright off-axis light, and displays less color fringing than that costly 8.5x. It somehow lacks the bright and colorful "eye candy" view of the Swaro, but in close comparison performs at least as well. The only binocular I have seen that beats it optically is a 50-ounce, individual focus 7x50 Fujinon FMT-SX.
Ron