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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Get what you pay for? Not always... (1 Viewer)

Enjoyed that!

Whenever I do that the "best" binocular is rarely if ever picked. ;) If you include a $2000 binocular it's practically gonna lose every time! The average person has no idea what a Zeiss or a Swarovski even IS! I think ergonomics and "ease of use" are most folks primary concern.

The average "birder" I see around here in the field usually has an older Bushnell. If they are REALLY an avid birder it's a Vortex. Seriously TRUE! Now I'm not knocking either brand but most things just don't matter to most folks that do matter to us.

I'd like to add 'fast' to the ergonomics/ease of use characteristics. If you can't get onto birds quickly, it all gets a bit frustrating.
While Swarovski remains the 'Badge of Seriousness' around Suffolk, there are plenty of RSPB/Viking and Opticrons round the necks of some very good birders. Speed in the field requires familiarity with your gear, i guess, which is perhaps preferable to increased resolution, brightness and all the other stuff for these chaps. If you gave them £2000, i'm pretty sure many of them wouldn't spend it on binoculars...B :)
 
Was the original image white?

The original image was a "white" piece of paper in sunlight. The background surrounding the four small squares is the way the camera recorded it. The four small squares are the same piece of white paper photographed by the same camera at the same time (with unchanged exposure and white balance settings) after passing through the optics of the binoculars.

To my eyes the Swaro and Leica squares look nearly color neutral, just darker than the original.
 
The average "birder" I see around here in the field usually has an older Bushnell. If they are REALLY an avid birder it's a Vortex. Seriously TRUE! Now I'm not knocking either brand but most things just don't matter to most folks that do matter to us.

An enjoyable morning coffee thread on a grey blustery day..

I am reminded of some of the most avid birders I've met, and their bins. One has an old Zeiss roof that the color has rubbed off the logo, and the bumpy, Meopta-like armor is quite scratched and worn. Another sports a Swarovski with a missing eyecup on one side... just an exposed metal thread with the glass on top. "I keep meaning to get that fixed..." One local has an absolutely beat pair of Swift Audubon's with dented eyecups, and the paint rubbed off much of the metal frame. A few more of the veterans have older Leica BN style roofs with the large ribbed frame in various states of wear, like ski boots that have been through many seasons.

They all put me in mind of Willie Nelson's guitar that has a hole worn through the top of it, yet it keeps going. Reliable and familiar tools of the trade.

A few of the shortest birders I've met were using 'large' binoculars: 10x 50 Brunton, and 10x42 Zeiss SF. No 8x32's for them!

In larger groups, I do see the abundance of Bushnell, Nikon, and Vortex

-Bill
 
The original image was a "white" piece of paper in sunlight. The background surrounding the four small squares is the way the camera recorded it. The four small squares are the same piece of white paper photographed by the same camera at the same time (with unchanged exposure and white balance settings) after passing through the optics of the binoculars.

To my eyes the Swaro and Leica squares look nearly color neutral, just darker than the original.

The Zeiss does look a bit greenish to me although the other three all look a tad reddish / purple....lol.

In the field, against snow, the 8.5 SV looks decidedly bluish to me every time.
 
Enjoyed that!

Whenever I do that the "best" binocular is rarely if ever picked. ;) If you include a $2000 binocular it's practically gonna lose every time! The average person has no idea what a Zeiss or a Swarovski even IS! I think ergonomics and "ease of use" are most folks primary concern.

The average "birder" I see around here in the field usually has an older Bushnell. If they are REALLY an avid birder it's a Vortex. Seriously TRUE! Now I'm not knocking either brand but most things just don't matter to most folks that do matter to us.

I see this all the time as well. I was just talking to a very experienced birder yesterday who was telling me about all the sparrows they had seen that morning. They were wearing a huge pair of Nikon Aculon 10x50's around their neck. I'm sure they were quite happy with them too!

Birding is more about nature and less about the fine details of optics, just like USING optics is often as much about the ergonomic experience as it is the image.
 
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At the risk of a slight side-track (but with an inkling of how all this may be drawn together) i have one more question for Henry:
I'm now at home (first look at work) on a better quality computer, and i see a slight difference in the 'colour-tinged' photo examples of the two quadrants on the left - very slight, mind....and (if i was forced to name tinges of white) would say towards the red side.
I was wondering what the larger greyish square was, surrounding the quadrants, between them and the outer white surround.

I'll leave what i was thinking until i've sorted it out in my head!
 
At the risk of a slight side-track (but with an inkling of how all this may be drawn together) i have one more question for Henry:

I was wondering what the larger greyish square was, surrounding the quadrants, between them and the outer white surround.

That square is the photo of the white paper with no binocular between the camera and the paper. I intentionally underexposed a bit to keep the color bias of the binoculars from washing out. The very bright white area outside it is not part of the photo at all. It's just the default background appearance of the Powerpoint slide.

You might try looking at the image from this post, which is the same thing, but with the qudrants brightened to be approximately equal in brightness to the surrounding gray square.

https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1390581&postcount=25
 
In the first photo in Henry's post I see from the top left, going clockwise: Not quite Pink, Almost Green, Kinda Orange, and Sort of Gray. There is very little to separate the two colors on the left. In the second, brightened photo they all are discernible, but nearly indistinguishable.
 
Very interesting. With my home PC and artificial light (with all that introduces), it seems from the single-post/brightened version that the Leica/Nikon (LH) have all but merged; i see what you mean about the slight green in the Zeiss, but the Swaro still seems to stand out for me.
I saw from your figures that the Zeiss needed the least (i assume) brightening to bring it up to 'close-to-merge' with the background. The odd thing is the Swarovski seems to have a distinct orangey tint to it, which i find a bit surprising - would have expected that more of the Leica.
I might just apply a little Tamnavulin Speyside to my brain and see if i can encapsulate a few thoughts on this interesting and divergent thread.....

By the way - this is what is sometimes great about the Forum - how a conversation seamlessly takes in so many elements while not actually losing track of the central theme.....
 
I found those 4 squares interesting, and people's reactions. Good eyes all around, because the color percentages are only off by 1% on a particular color component between squares.

(I thought I was imagining what I was seeing, so I double-checked in Photoshop.)
 
In the first photo in Henry's post I see from the top left, going clockwise: Not quite Pink, Almost Green, Kinda Orange, and Sort of Gray. There is very little to separate the two colors on the left. In the second, brightened photo they all are discernible, but nearly indistinguishable.

Precisely! I would add that the upper right (greenish square) appears to my eyes to be slightly brighter than either of its adjacent companions.

These are hairsplitting differences that have been given a contextual relationship to make them evident. I agree they exist.

The complexities of nature would likely mask these differences most of the time in real world use. The color shifts require a fairly neutral setting to be apparent.

-Bill
 
By the way - this is what is sometimes great about the Forum - how a conversation seamlessly takes in so many elements while not actually losing track of the central theme.....

What was the central theme of this thread again? :D

It's been informative, that's for sure.

When my wife ranked the binocs 1) Bushnell Legend M, 2) Swaro SLC, 3) Leupold Acadia, and put my beloved Zeiss Conquests in a dead last tie with my beloved Sightron's, I had to know just what in the he!! had just happened! ha, ha. My whole optical world was turned upside down in one minute.
 
So far, we seem to have (via Typo) the research that perhaps women have a better 'sense' for colour, and that men, chromosomically speaking, may have something of a split on their red/green perception;
Justabirdwatcher likes the Sighton for the few failings that could annoy him, but both wife and daughter rated it towards the least of their preferences;
daughter (younger eyes, no glasses) picked out the Zeiss for its resolution;
we also have the issue of ergonomics (both as an assumed female preference, but also important in the field);
regular, experienced birders who would rather work with their beaten-up and mid-range bins than invest in something new;
that a single annoyance (e.g. CA) can be a real deal-breaker;
that 4 Alpha bins can demonstrate varied colour-casts, without any being extreme enough to be off-putting;
my point that familiarity and 'speed of use' in the field is an important factor

Plus some other points that perhaps i should have mentioned.

My conclusion from this is that we are all blessed/cursed with a range of physical characteristics regarding our eyes - some gender-based, some down to the individual and probably age. While all of the binoculars brought into the discussion are all suited to their main purpose, what may induce a preference is not just the optical quality, or the colour rendition, and that familiarity plays an important part in field operation, whatever state an old set might be in. The fit, feel, weight, ease of view may well outweigh what a spec sheet may say about a much more expensive pair of bins - as for most, it's all about 'getting on the bird,' as quickly as possible.
And we're faced with all this in the threads that start 'Which is better......?'!!
I think it's becoming obvious that none of them/all of them are!!

My findings amongst birders i know is that - providing the manufacturer is consistent - they will become a Swaro guy, or a Zeiss girl or similar. They are used to the colour bias, used to the focus gearing, happy with the general feel, balance, armouring etc. and generally familiar with the brand. When they replace, they replace with the same make.
I'm quite ok with the fact i like the Zeiss approach; whenever i look through Swaros, it's a bit of a shock. It's great - but different. I may have become so used to the 'green cast' that i don't see it, which is why Swarovski always seem pale to me.
So to draw this back to the original post: it seems perfectly understandable, with all these wide-ranging circumstances, that not just the inexperienced might prefer a cheaper pair over an Alpha, but that some very experienced birders might too - and we can spend forever working out why that might be, but only they will know.....
Anyway - that whisky hardly touched the sides......and i think i've drained my post energy.....
 
I've long found it curious that members here have distinctly different opinions on the colour balance of different binoculars, (Zeiss in paticular). Add in the popular view that women are often better at distinguishing colours than men and it got me wondering if there was an underlying reason.

Initially most scientific studies I found appeared to show that outside the classic types of colour blindness which affect about 8%of men and 1% of women there was very little if any gender difference. Virtually all these studies used a anomaloscope for the investigation. It's an instrument first devised by Lord Rayleigh in 1881 to identify those with the classic types of colour blindness from 'normal' vision. Studies going back at least 30 years show it is fairly insensitive to the variation within the 'normal' population and many alternatives have been reported which claim to distinguish differences that would be otherwise missed.

It was in the 1980s that the evolving genetic techniques began to reveal the heterogeneity of the components that make up out photo sensitive sells in the retina. In particular it was noted that roughly half the population had one amino acid at position 180 on the L-optis (red pigment) and the other half a different one. This caused a small but significant shift in the absorption peak of the pigment, but less than that for the most common form of red/green colour blindness. Although anomaloscope studies generally failed to show a functional difference in colour sensitivity, other tests claim to do so. It means that about 50% of men have a slightly different red/green sensitivity to the other 50%.

I stressed men because the genetic information is carried on the X chromosome it means that men have a single copy of the gene and express one variant or the other. Women have two X-chromosomes and can have have two copies of one form, two copies of the other, or one of each. As a consequence the studies show that a higher proportion of women have slightly better colour sensitivity on average.

Beyond this it gets increasingly complicated. There is also a comparable amino acid substitution on the M-opsin (green pigment). One study found that the best performing individuals In tests had the genes for both variants on each opsin. That means that while men will normaly have one each or the blue green and red receptors a small proportion of women have a blue, two red green annd two red receptors. Other amino acid substution have been identified that probably contribute to the story.

It is quite clear that at the genetic and physiological level, men vary in their colour sensitivity, not only from each other but also distinctly from a proportion of women. However as Calvin and Paddy point out, other factors like "training" will also pray a role, as will aging and disease, so things are not clear cut. However if your wife/girlfriend says her handbag doesn't go with her shoes it's probably best not to argue. ;)

David

PS. 18yo Highland Park juggles with 18yo Ardbeg and McCallan for top spot for me, but JW red label is more my budget. :-C

I see orange, my wife sees red. I think shes right
 
Fun thread.

I don't think that having little experience with binoculars makes one a more objective evaluator. With more experience it may be possible to become more discerning and become more aware of differences between instruments. However, it is always a subjective call of how well the binocular suits a person and his or her pursuits. Perhaps someone new to the field may very well be pleased with a less expensive binocular to begin with. My own experience is that even if my first impression is good, it still takes a while in the field to determine what I really think about it.

It's very clear to me that the binoculars do not make the birder. There is someone who I see often, because he is out birding every day. He is a tremendous resource because of his experience and knowledge of local spots and what has been seen over many years. We got to talking one afternoon and he asked about my Maven 9x45 binocular so I asked if he'd like to use them for a while. His first comment was "Wow!, these are great, so sharp and the field is so wide." After he spent about ten minutes trying them out he told me they were really terrific. He apologetically asked if I'd tell him how much they cost. When i told him they were $1K new (I bought them used), he said, "That's what I was afraid of." I'm not 1/10th the birder he is, but I have the fancy binocular. I don't even remember what he was using. Like my old violin teacher told me, Heifetz would sound better on my violin than I would on his Strad.

Yet I do enjoy using a nice binocular, and among the binoculars I have bought and kept, my subjective assessment is that the nicer ones are more expensive. Am I getting what I paid for? I think so, or I would return it. The tougher question is whether it is worth going from $1,000 to $2,000 or more for the small difference in performance, and how discernible is that small difference to an individual. Again these are very subjective questions and matters of preference more than matters of fact.

Alan

P.S. Lagavulin and Bunnahabhain are my favorite single malts; I like the Islay whiskys. While longer aging is often better, and almost always more expensive, sometimes I think a whisky can lose some of its character. I like the 10 year old Talisker better than the 18, and the Bunnahabhain 25 is very nice, but too meek. I'm sure that more discerning Scotch drinkers would correct me ;).
 
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A fundamental difference between most birders and we contributors to the Binocular Forum is that we're interested in them as an artifact in themselves and have become fascinated and attached to the tools of the trade. This perhaps can become a little obsessive at times.
Some of the finest birders i know would not have one clue about some of the discussions here...astigmatism? pincushion? field curvature? transmission data?

Of course, if you're contemplating spending 1000 dollars, pounds, euros or whatever on something, i would become very interested indeed, and do all the research i could before shelling out. However, that is not in everyone's nature.
I've always suspected that the Alphas profit from the latter approach, as it's easier to just 'buy the best' (=most expensive) and just get on with it in a fairly non-critical way.
I guess that those who become into the subject may also be striving for something better, which of course contributes to the market, and keeps the designers, manufacturers, assemblers, importers etc. in business!
 
It's always perplexed me a bit about this site. Some complain about obsessiveness and excessive minutia discussion but this is birdforum ''binocular forum''. This is one of the only places on the net to discuss any of that, with like minded individuals.
 
So far, we seem to have (via Typo) the research that perhaps women have a better 'sense' for colour, and that men, chromosomically speaking, may have something of a split on their red/green perception;
Justabirdwatcher likes the Sighton for the few failings that could annoy him, but both wife and daughter rated it towards the least of their preferences;
daughter (younger eyes, no glasses) picked out the Zeiss for its resolution;
we also have the issue of ergonomics (both as an assumed female preference, but also important in the field);
regular, experienced birders who would rather work with their beaten-up and mid-range bins than invest in something new;
that a single annoyance (e.g. CA) can be a real deal-breaker;
that 4 Alpha bins can demonstrate varied colour-casts, without any being extreme enough to be off-putting;
my point that familiarity and 'speed of use' in the field is an important factor

Plus some other points that perhaps i should have mentioned.

My conclusion from this is that we are all blessed/cursed with a range of physical characteristics regarding our eyes - some gender-based, some down to the individual and probably age. While all of the binoculars brought into the discussion are all suited to their main purpose, what may induce a preference is not just the optical quality, or the colour rendition, and that familiarity plays an important part in field operation, whatever state an old set might be in. The fit, feel, weight, ease of view may well outweigh what a spec sheet may say about a much more expensive pair of bins - as for most, it's all about 'getting on the bird,' as quickly as possible.
And we're faced with all this in the threads that start 'Which is better......?'!!
I think it's becoming obvious that none of them/all of them are!!

My findings amongst birders i know is that - providing the manufacturer is consistent - they will become a Swaro guy, or a Zeiss girl or similar. They are used to the colour bias, used to the focus gearing, happy with the general feel, balance, armouring etc. and generally familiar with the brand. When they replace, they replace with the same make.
I'm quite ok with the fact i like the Zeiss approach; whenever i look through Swaros, it's a bit of a shock. It's great - but different. I may have become so used to the 'green cast' that i don't see it, which is why Swarovski always seem pale to me.
So to draw this back to the original post: it seems perfectly understandable, with all these wide-ranging circumstances, that not just the inexperienced might prefer a cheaper pair over an Alpha, but that some very experienced birders might too - and we can spend forever working out why that might be, but only they will know.....
Anyway - that whisky hardly touched the sides......and i think i've drained my post energy.....

I'd say that's an outstanding summary. And when I read that I think to myself, I'm sure glad I'm not responsible for designing binocluars for the marketplace! What a chore!

FWIW, my observations regarding color cast and other attributes of my Zeiss Conquests compared to Swaros are exactly the same as yours, and I have the same reaction every time I look through Swaros, which is why I've bought and sold two pairs of SLC's now. Some people think I'm out of my mind to prefer the view of the Conquests to the SLC's. Maybe I am. LOL
 
A fundamental difference between most birders and we contributors to the Binocular Forum is that we're interested in them as an artifact in themselves and have become fascinated and attached to the tools of the trade. This perhaps can become a little obsessive at times.
Some of the finest birders i know would not have one clue about some of the discussions here...astigmatism? pincushion? field curvature? transmission data?

I'd say that describes about 2/3 of the birders I know and most of the other 1/3 just bought what their birder friends were using because they had the money and could afford whatever they wanted. Of the hundreds of birders I meet a year, I doubt more than five of them could describe more than three features of their own binoculars.

I'm sure this is true in many activities that have the potential to involve expensive gear. Cycling, Archery, Air rifles, Sailing. You can do all of them for either very little money, or you can go broke doing them if you want.
 
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