More than likely a Silver y but it seemed different (1 Viewer)

I brought this indoors after finding it hanging from one of our flower baskets. It looked to be about two thirds the normal size of the Silver y's that I see every night. I also had the feeling that there were other differences but couldn't put my finger on what they were. Without having any other Silver Y's to compare it to I thought it best to put it into the Forum.

I do think it is a Silver Y but I would like to think that I am wrong and it is something different.

I think it's a silver-Y. It looks similar to the controversial one I posted a month or two back which, eventually, everyone agreed was gamma... but I'm sure you'll get other views!
Ken

Surreybirder said:

I think it's a silver-Y. It looks similar to the controversial one I posted a month or two back which, eventually, everyone agreed was gamma... but I'm sure you'll get other views!
Ken

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Thanks Ken.

Let see what other suggestions are made.

I think it's a Silver Y, too. They are quite variable. We seem to catch loads of them in our trap, along with dozens of yellow underwings. We haven't had much luck catching anything very special recently. Nick is thinking of buying a small portable generator, £100-00 from B&Q, so we can travel further afield.

A couple of highlights elsewhere recently, my brother's neighbour had an elephant hawk moth caterpillar in his garden the other day, and my cousin had a couple of hummingbird hawk moths. I remember seeing one of those as a small child, wondering what the heck it was. It was flying around some golden rod in our garden. I was told that was one of its favourite flowers.

Reader said:

I brought this indoors after finding it hanging from one of our flower baskets. It looked to be about two thirds the normal size of the Silver y's that I see every night. I also had the feeling that there were other differences but couldn't put my finger on what they were. Without having any other Silver Y's to compare it to I thought it best to put it into the Forum.

I do think it is a Silver Y but I would like to think that I am wrong and it is something different.

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I think your correct Reader,
It is a Silver Y. If you have a copy of Waring & Townsend you will see they show three different forms including a small form.

Dwarfism in insects is usually (but not always) caused by larval starvation and is not uncommon in many species. The Silver Y is both a resident and a migrant species and many Continental specimens I have seen have indeed been larger that those that are, 'home grown'. I know there are several similar 'Plusia's' but the majority of them are very rare migrants to this country.

Harry

harry eales said:

The Silver Y is both a resident

Harry

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Resident or Transient resident? Do they overwinter? I thought not.

harry eales said:

I think your correct Reader,
It is a Silver Y. If you have a copy of Waring & Townsend you will see they show three different forms including a small form.

Harry

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Hi harry

I had noticed that the middle one in Waring & Townsend was smaller than the others and I couldn't think what else it was. I suppose as time goes by I will get to see more variations in different moths and, hopefully, get to know those differences.

Angus T said:

Resident or Transient resident? Do they overwinter? I thought not.

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Hello Angus,
I know both Waring and Townsend and Skinner say just 'migrant' However in 1996 the year of the enormous Painted Lady invasion, I bred some 20 Silver Y's from eggs obtained from a female Silver Y in September. These emerged in March the following year. As with virtually all the species I rear, these were kept outside in a 12" bucket which contained growing foodplant, in this case Stinging Nettle, The pots have wire frames supporting a net tube which is secured around the bucket rim and at the top of the wire frame. As usual the Nettle died back at the end of the year, and no trace of any larva could be seen, nor were any seen when regrowth started in the following February. But in March the adults started to emerge, so they obviously survived.

I cannot remember what the winter weather was like between 1996-7 but it didn't kill off these larva/pupa. It's my own opinion that Silver Y is resident or perhaps I should qualify that and say occasional resident when the winter temperatures are not too severe. The textbooks are not witten in stone and I have been able to show them to be incorrect on several occasions.

Harry

harry eales said:

Hello Angus,
I know both Waring and Townsend and Skinner say just 'migrant' However in 1996 the year of the enormous Painted Lady invasion, I bred some 20 Silver Y's from eggs obtained from a female Silver Y in September. These emerged in March the following year. As with virtually all the species I rear, these were kept outside in a 12" bucket which contained growing foodplant, in this case Stinging Nettle, The pots have wire frames supporting a net tube which is secured around the bucket rim and at the top of the wire frame. As usual the Nettle died back at the end of the year, and no trace of any larva could be seen, nor were any seen when regrowth started in the following February. But in March the adults started to emerge, so they obviously survived.

I cannot remember what the winter weather was like between 1996-7 but it didn't kill off these larva/pupa. It's my own opinion that Silver Y is resident or perhaps I should qualify that and say occasional resident when the winter temperatures are not too severe. The textbooks are not witten in stone and I have been able to show them to be incorrect on several occasions.

Harry

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Very interesting Harry, I'll await the amended textbook from you then

Angus T said:

Very interesting Harry, I'll await the amended textbook from you then

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Angus,
I have no intention of writing a textbook on either butterflies or moths, I have far too many other things to do in the relatively few years left of my life.

In general terms no author(s) can have all the practical experience of breeding, or even seeing all the species they write about. A good author will research his subject as thoroughly as possible using as much information as he can glean from the most recently published articles or notes in entomological journals or magazines, and by accessing distribution data bases etc. Unfortunately not all papers on British insects are published in British publications, and there are many publications that are either expensive or difficult to obtain, so a thorough search could take years.

I do publish findings myself on occasions, and have co-authored other papers which have appeared in various journals. Then it's up to others to take it from there. Even getting a paper published can take up to a year, especially if it has to be peer reviewed first by several other entomologists.

I have commented before on the frequent unreliability of information in many entomological books. It's not unusual for authors to quote 'facts' printed often more than a century before (often without references to the original) when in fact the original information was incorrect. Plagiarism is, and has been rife, in a great many natural history books, and while errors can be gradually removed, it can often take many decades to do so.

Harry