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Question: experience with full frame digiscoping? (1 Viewer)

vd Berg

vd Berg

Active member
Hello,

What is your experience with full frame digiscoping (preferably in non-optimal light conditions) with a focal length from 1.000mm? The purpose is digiscoping for identification photos at long distance (preferably in dim light) of a) small birds in high trees b) far-a-way waders. So, getting closer to the subject is not an option. ‘tac sharp’, ‘good/sharp detail’ photos are not intended.

With kind regards,
vd Berg
 
Hi, and welcome.

I don't know about digiscoping, but for dim light I find the full frame Sony A7S exceptional.
I use 51,000 ISO regularly and the default Programme uses 100 IS0 to 12,800 ISO, and the photos are much the same at 12,800 ISO and 100 ISO.

The Sony A7S Mk2 is better, as it has body stabilisation and is I think even more sensitive.

No Mk3 yet.
 
Hi,

first of all, welcome to BF!

I don't have experience with full frame as these are usually too big for may taste, but did some low light and high distance shooting through a scope with m43.

Full frame cameras have their issues for digiscoping - they're huge and will unbalance the scope, if they're DSLRs there is mirror slap to work around and even a mechanical shutter might ruin things at 2000mm and beyond.

Also you work with a limited amount of light dictated by the fixed aperture of your spotter which will give moderate illumination on a full frame sensor but will be brighter on a crop or really bright on a P&S small sensor.
On the other hand the full frame can take a bit higher ISO with useful results... I think the sweet spot lies somewhere in the crop sensor realm and at its smaller sensor end - say m43 down to 1" (which doesn't really mean 1" diagonal for historic reasons). They do have sensors with pretty good noise control in that range and lots of great images get taken using those...

If you are dead set on using a full frame camera, your best bet is probably using a TLS-APO adapter which will make your scope into a quite slow fixed aperture manual focus super telephoto lens without IS.
Good images can be taken that way, but you're usually working somewhere in the 800-1200mm range.

Joachim
 
Hello Binastro,

Thanks for your reaction and for your welcome. What are your ‘facts and figures’? So, with which focal length and aperture do you take (‘tac sharp’, ‘good/sharp’ detail) photos of how large/small sized birds and at what distance is the bird (in dim light)? BIF or perched?

With kind regards,
vd Berg
 
Hi vd Berg,
I am mainly an astronomer, but have taken bird photos but only of birds perched on chimney pots at 124m distance.

Usually, my lens with the Sony A7S is only an 85mm f/1.4, but I used to take Saturn and Jupiter photos at 23,000mm equivalent focal length f/72 1 second at 160 ISO on Ektachrome slide film, Minolta 303b full frame body, but 3 images per frame.
Only 3 or 4 images out of 111 on a roll of film were tac sharp. 1 arcsecond about, possibly better sometimes. This is because of atmospheric disturbance at 23,000mm.
The native focal length was 4,650mm, 317mm aperture Dall Kirkham windowed thin edge mirror custom scope on custom tripod.

I have taken good photos of flying cormorants with a Canon compact digital camera, probably 200 metres away.
But in good light.

I have an old Pentax 1000mm f/8 lens and used a 500mm f/8 Nikon mirror lens with a 2x converter on APS dgiital, giving about 1600mm focal length equivalent.
 
Last edited:
Hello jring/Joachim,

Thanks for your reaction and for your welcome.

Joachim wrote quote “but did some low light and high distance shooting through a scope with m43”
Can you be (more) specific about your used focal length, aperture, the light conditions (was there haze, heat, dust, humidity, low light, shadow, contrast, backlight, …) and the (large/small) size of and the distance towards the bird(s)? Could the birds be identified by the photos?

I agree, m43, APS-C, Full frame cameras with (prime) super telephoto lenses AND m43, APS-C, Full frame cameras with telescopes for digiscoping all have their issues for identification photos at long distance (in dim light) of a) small birds in high trees b) far-a-way waders. When getting closer to the subject is not an option. I doubt crop sensors are better with prime super telephoto lenses AND/OR with telescopes for digiscoping. Do you have ‘facts and figures’?

With kind regards,
vd Berg
 
 
Whitehead's Trogon

Taken with Swarovski STX95 at 30x on TLS APO adapter with Nikon D3s full frame camera. EV + 0.3, ISO 3200 and 1/80s shutter speed at Mt. Kinabalu

JAY_1385 Whitehead's Trogon.JPG
 
Hello horukuru,

Thanks for your reaction.

Concerning your Whitehead’s Trogon photo: What exact type of TLS APO adapter did you use (because of the vignetting), what where approximately the distance towards the Whitehead’s Trogon (Harpactes whiteheadi, https://observation.org/soort/info/71031)? For what kind of light condition (heat, humidity, low light, …) did you need EV +0.3, ISO 3200 and 1/80s shutter speed?

Thanks again for http://horukuru.blogspot.com/2014/01/swarovski-stx-95-modular-telescope.html

With kind regards,
vd Berg
 
Hi,

thanks horokuru for demonstrating what to expect with TLS APO (Swaro in this case) - nice shot (under foilage I assume). Do you remember an approximate distance?

It can be seen that the original Swaro TLS APO for ATX (30mm) was designed for APS-C crop factor cameras and thus shows vignetting with a full frame body. Swaro has launched a TLS APO with 43mm for full frame bodies which will show no vignetting on those. There is also a 23mm version for even smaller sensors like m43.

All those will result into 860 or 1075mm effective focal length (ATX 85 with EP at 20x or ATX95 with zoom at 25x as per instructions).

As for my m43 digiscoping attempts - the few ones I posted on here are taken at ok light and often at 150m distance (and approximately 3000mm effective focal length) as this is the distance to the bird reserve across the river from my balcony. I'm sure I have ID only bad light shots too, will look for some.

Joachim
 
vd Berg said:
Hello horukuru,

Thanks for your reaction.

Concerning your Whitehead’s Trogon photo: What exact type of TLS APO adapter did you use (because of the vignetting), what where approximately the distance towards the Whitehead’s Trogon (Harpactes whiteheadi, https://observation.org/soort/info/71031)? For what kind of light condition (heat, humidity, low light, …) did you need EV +0.3, ISO 3200 and 1/80s shutter speed?

Thanks again for http://horukuru.blogspot.com/2014/01/swarovski-stx-95-modular-telescope.html

With kind regards,
vd Berg
Click to expand...

Probably around 10-20m and the full frame has a better sensor in low light. It is at the mountain and humidity is around 70% throughout the day. Taken with TLS APO 30.


jring said:
Hi,

thanks horokuru for demonstrating what to expect with TLS APO (Swaro in this case) - nice shot (under foilage I assume). Do you remember an approximate distance?

It can be seen that the original Swaro TLS APO for ATX (30mm) was designed for APS-C crop factor cameras and thus shows vignetting with a full frame body. Swaro has launched a TLS APO with 43mm for full frame bodies which will show no vignetting on those. There is also a 23mm version for even smaller sensors like m43.

All those will result into 860 or 1075mm effective focal length (ATX 85 with EP at 20x or ATX95 with zoom at 25x as per instructions).

As for my m43 digiscoping attempts - the few ones I posted on here are taken at ok light and often at 150m distance (and approximately 3000mm effective focal length) as this is the distance to the bird reserve across the river from my balcony. I'm sure I have ID only bad light shots too, will look for some.

Joachim
Click to expand...

;)
 
Hello horukuru,

Thanks for your reply. Do you have a full frame digiscoped photo from a (preferably small) bird made at a longer distance then the photo made from the Whitehead’s Trogon?

With kind regards,
vd Berg
 
vd Berg said:
Hello horukuru,

Thanks for your reply. Do you have a full frame digiscoped photo from a (preferably small) bird made at a longer distance then the photo made from the Whitehead’s Trogon?

With kind regards,
vd Berg
Click to expand...

I don't have. I preferred to used mirrorless camera than full frame because of the vignetting with the TLS APO 30. Once I get the TLS APO 43, then I will use the F camera more
 
SWAROVSKI OPTIK VERTRIEBS GMBH
Daniel-Swarovski-Straße 70
6067 Absam, Austria

Date: 16th of December 2018
Subject: full frame digiscoping Swarovski ambassador

Dear,

Can you forward me one or (preferably) more email address(es) of (a) Swarovski ambassador(s) ‘wherever in the World’ who actively practice(s) full frame digiscoping?

On www.birdforum.net and www.dpreview.com no ambassador is found.

...

With kind regards,
... vd Berg
Click to expand...

Hello,

@horukuru Thanks for your reply.

@All For your information, you will be informed.

With kind regards,
vd Berg
 
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