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Beach Thick-knee or Bush Stone-curlew (1 Viewer)

RMD

RMD

Richard
Slaters Field Guide to Australian Birds names it Beach Stone-curlew but the Readers Digest Complete Book of Australian Birds calls it a Beach Thick-knee.

Both books have the same scientific name Esacus magnirostris.

BUT, here at BirdForum it is named as a Beach Thick-knee or Be. Stone-curlew [Esacus neglectus].

Link - (http://www.birdforum.net/bird_view.php?bid=610)

Would I be correct in posting it to the database under Esacus magnirosris as there isn't a species listed under that name?

Richard
 

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Nice photo of a wonderfully bizarre bird. The current Australian list gives it as Beach Stone-curlew, E. neglectus, so I guess that would be the current agreed name for the species.

Stuart
 
Richard, Stuart,

Actually, the Database is out-of-date for this one. It uses the Sibley-Monroe 1996. The current correct treatment for the Sibley-Monroe 2003 has for the two species sometimes treated in genus Esacus, i.e., Beach Thick-knee (E. neglectus), and Great Thick-knee (E. recurvirostris) listing as Beach Thick-knee (Burhinus giganteus), and Great Thick-knee (Burhinus recurvirostris). Stone-curlew is just another way to say Thick-knee. The SM has decided for the nomenclature Thick-knee for these birds.
 
Thanks Steve,

As a new user of the forum I'm still having a hard time comming to grips with the same bird having different scientific names, common names no problem.

A search in the database shows neither Beach Thick-knee nor Burhinus giganteus.

Steve, your recommendation please?

Attached is a "wings down" photo, again from today.

Richard
 

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RMD said:
Thanks Steve,

As a new user of the forum I'm still having a hard time comming to grips with the same bird having different scientific names, common names no problem.

A search in the database shows neither Beach Thick-knee nor Burhinus giganteus.

Steve, your recommendation please?

Attached is a "wings down" photo, again from today.

Richard
Click to expand...

Richard, your bird is obviously a Beach Thick-knee (or Beach Stone-curlew). As the Database is presently it would have to go in under the slot for Esacus neglectus.

The problem is basically the use of differing taxonomy and nomenclature according to the various world and regional lists for the two birds that I had mentioned - Great Thick-knee (Stone-curlew) and Beach Thick-knee (Stone-curlew).

Taxonomy Note:

Sibley-Monroe 1996 (the one used in this Database)

Great Thick-knee - Burhinus recurvirostris
Beach Thick-knee - Esacus neglectus

Clement's 5° Ed. (updated 2005)

Great Thick-knee - Burhinus recurvirostris
Beach Thick-knee - Burhinus magnirostris

Howard & Moore 3° Ed. (updated 2004)

Great Stone Curlew - Esacus recurvirostris
Beach Stone Curlew - Esacus magnirostris

Sibley-Monroe (2003) (this is what is should be in the Database if it were current)

Great Thick-knee - Burhinus recurvirostris
Beach Thick-knee - Burhinus giganteus (your bird)

As you can see there is quite a bit of discord regarding the classification and taxonomy of these two large closely-related Thick-knees.

What should be done is for one of the Moderators (you can contact by PM) that has required access and possibility for changing the Database entries, to delete the present slot for Beach Thick-knee (Esacus neglectus), and to create the slot Beach Thick-knee (Burhinus giganteus). I would do it myself but I don't have the necessary access to the Database for this type of modification.
 
Thanks Steve, had the same problem last night with the scientific naming of an Eastern Reef Egret.

I'll leave the scientific name out until I recieve your XL document, can you tell me how big it is byte size please?

Richard
 
RMD said:
Thanks Steve, had the same problem last night with the scientific naming of an Eastern Reef Egret.

I'll leave the scientific name out until I recieve your XL document, can you tell me how big it is byte size please?

Richard
Click to expand...

Richard,
It is 964 KB unzipped and 260 KB zipped.
 
OUCH, that'll kill me on dial-up, as is right now, even pictures wont fill in.

Drop you a mail soon Steve and thanks again.

Richard
 
RMD said:
OUCH, that'll kill me on dial-up, as is right now, even pictures wont fill in.

Drop you a mail soon Steve and thanks again.

Richard
Click to expand...

Richard, I also have it uploaded as a zip on this site. Give me a minute and I'll try to search the threads and find it for you.
 
Well, from this length of this thread it now seems the specific name "neglectus" is no longer appropriate.

I guess Great Beach Stone is too Australian sixties....

Pemburung
 
These are far, far too beautiful to even think of calling "thick knees". The Beach Stone-curlew is, I grant you, an odd-looking creature, but the Bush Stone-curlew is utterly loveley.

I don't recall the range of the Beach Stone-curlew but I seem to remember that they appear on beaches and shores through a number of countries. The Bush Stone-curlew, however, is an Australian endemic and, as such, has a single and official name: thankfully, this is stone-curlew, not thick-knee.
 
Hi Tannin,
To talk about an "official" nomenclature in anything related to avian taxonomy is disingenuous. ;)

As far as the major world lists go, both the Sibley-Monroe, and the Clement's use the nomenclature "Thick-knee" for all of these Burhinidae. The Howard & Moore does distance itself somewhat from the monolithic view and has Burhinus vermiculatus (Water Dikkop), Burhinus capensis (Spotted Dikkop), Burhinus oedicnemus (Eurasian Stone Curlew), Burhinus grallarius (Bush Stone Curlew), Esacus recurvirostris (Great Stone Curlew), and Esacus magnirostris (Beach Stone Curlew).

By the way, Burhinus grallarius is NOT an Australian endemic. It winters in SC New Guinea. :news:

Range of Beach Thick-knee (Stone Curlew): Andaman Is. coastline, and islets off the Malaysian peninsula, Philippines, to New Guinea and Australia.
 
Last edited:
Not so, Steve.

So far as species confined to a particular geographical area go, the official body responsible for that area gets to decide what the official name is. For any bird endemic to Australia, New Zealand and/or the Antarctic, that is the joint Oz/Kiwi list. You and I can use any name we like, but the official name is the one on the official list. End of story.

Where the species is worldwide or shared between two such areas, and where the relevant authorities have not yet coordinated their nonclementure, then the correct name is, of course, open to debate. Similarly, where there are two different naming schemes that pertain to a particular area (I think South Africa is an example of this, though not being from that part of the world I don't follow it very closely), then the correct name becomes debatable.

Am I splitting hairs here? No! Common names are important. In many cases, the scientific name gets changed so often that the common name is the simplest and most reliable way to indicate a particular species. What genus does the Little Egret belong to this week?
 
o.k. Hopefully the database is up to date on this one now... there are now two entries,
Great Thick-knee - Burhinus recurvirostris
Beach Thick-knee - Burhinus giganteus (Richard's photo in that one). We try to update as we go along and are thankful to those who point out the discrepancies between 96 SM and 2003 SM (at least we can change things, unlike books ;)
 
Tannin said:
Not so, Steve.

So far as species confined to a particular geographical area go, the official body responsible for that area gets to decide what the official name is. For any bird endemic to Australia, New Zealand and/or the Antarctic, that is the joint Oz/Kiwi list. You and I can use any name we like, but the official name is the one on the official list. End of story.

Where the species is worldwide or shared between two such areas, and where the relevant authorities have not yet coordinated their nonclementure, then the correct name is, of course, open to debate. Similarly, where there are two different naming schemes that pertain to a particular area (I think South Africa is an example of this, though not being from that part of the world I don't follow it very closely), then the correct name becomes debatable.

Am I splitting hairs here? No! Common names are important. In many cases, the scientific name gets changed so often that the common name is the simplest and most reliable way to indicate a particular species. What genus does the Little Egret belong to this week?
Click to expand...


Tannin,
Points all well taken and it certainly was not my intent to stir up a "turf war". You are certainly right in the assertion that it is up to preposed country committees (when they exist, that is) to establish their own taxonomy and nomenclature. It is necessary in my view, however, to have at least a basic familiarity with the various world lists while keeping in mind the differences that the various regional lists may carry. I think that Bird Australia is referring to the latest Boles & Cristidis and it somehow enters into the picture for the Oz regional list. As per South Africa, the Percy Fitzpatrick Institute has been doing a work of revision for years that would tend to bring the Robert's list more in consonance with the Sibley-Monroe. Basically, the problems arise when foreign birders go somewhere and don't recognise the local colloquial common names (even if they are "officially" accepted by the Committee for the country). Taxonomy and nomenclature are confusing at best and attempts to organize things in ways that are more universally recognized should be encouraged I think. An example, I once found on an Australian site a text comment for the occurance of "Jabiru" in the Northern Territories. It took me a while to figure out they were talking about Ephippiorhynchus.
 
absolutely Steve

the sooner we can arrive at a 'standard' world taxo the better

S and M and Clements are pretty decent in the meantime. Three though (with H and M), is just too much for me to keep track of.

I too have had the Jabiru problem in Australia and have wondered just what 'sparrows' an 'buntings' are in the Americas

Tim
 
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