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Vortex Viper UHD beats Zeiss SF and Leica Noctivid! (1 Viewer)

They have been on the market for a while now, it will be interesting when other reviews of the Vortex UHD come out over time.
Size and possibly weight could be a detriment for some. Additionally it looks like a Maven in green in an 8X42 configuration instead of 9X45, or a Blaser Primus.
I really do not see how it could be better than premium glass from Zeiss, Leica or Swarovski, I mean.... you always get what you pay for. Build quality I believe will be the Achilles heel with this glass. Did one get a good sample? or, It needs to be sent back for a replacement.

Andy W.
 
"I really do not see how it could be better than premium glass from Zeiss, Leica or Swarovski, I mean.... you always get what you pay for. Build quality I believe will be the Achilles heel with this glass."

Chinese labor costs are simply less. IF they get their QA equal to Zeiss, Leica or Swarovski the Chinese can build an equivalent binocular for less money. It is a big IF though.;)
 
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They have been on the market for a while now, it will be interesting when other reviews of the Vortex UHD come out over time.
Size and possibly weight could be a detriment for some. Additionally it looks like a Maven in green in an 8X42 configuration instead of 9X45, or a Blaser Primus.
I really do not see how it could be better than premium glass from Zeiss, Leica or Swarovski, I mean.... you always get what you pay for. Build quality I believe will be the Achilles heel with this glass. Did one get a good sample? or, It needs to be sent back for a replacement.

Andy W.


Numerous reviews on rokslide would confirm your thoughts dries.....it's not better than the alphas. The general consensus of (insert the h word) is that Vortex warranty is a good thing, but unfortunately you'll likely have to use it, which is not good. denco has become quite the Vortex fanboy it seems.
 
Henry. The Nikon EDG for one uses a doublet in the objective lens so there still are some doublet's used. Of course you know that most porro's and Canon IS's use a cemented achromatic doublet objective also. The Zeiss HT though uses 6 lenses in it's objective lens. You are right though because most modern roof's do use at least 3 elements in the objective. What you are saying is Vortex is using blatant false advertising in their claims about the Razor UHD. I sent a message to Vortex about their claims to see what their response is. I think there has been a lot of threads on Bird Forum on what an Apochromatic Lens is and it depends on your definition of it. Vortex and Zeiss are probably bending the definition in their marketing.

"Apochromatic (APO) Lenses
Rather than the more widely used and less expensive achromatic doublet lens design that as the name suggests uses two lens elements within each lens, Vortex Razor UHD binoculars have apochromatic lenses that are usually made up of at least 3 lens elements.Whist this additional piece of glass in each lens is certainly one of the contributors to the instrument being both heavier and longer than average, the advantage is that instead of just two, an APO lens is able to focus three wavelengths of light onto a single point and thus are able to better reduce chromatic and spherical aberrations for a higher definition image."

Where are you getting those numbers, Dennis? The EDG and the HT have the common pattern of fixed triplets consisting of a singlet and a cemented doublet with an air space between, followed by a singlet focusing element. I wouldn't argue that there are no doublets at all in current roof prism binoculars, but I can think of only one recent design that uses a fixed cemented doublet followed by a focusing singlet, the Zeiss SF. I suppose there could a clone or two of it or a similar old Swarovski doublet design.

The answer you got from Vortex is typical marketing boilerplate which fails to mention that (like all binoculars) the focal ratio of the objective is too low for three colors to be brought to a common focus, triplet or not.

Henry
 
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Numerous reviews on rokslide would confirm your thoughts dries.....it's not better than the alphas. The general consensus of (insert the h word) is that Vortex warranty is a good thing, but unfortunately you'll likely have to use it, which is not good. denco has become quite the Vortex fanboy it seems.
No, I am definitely not a Vortex fanboy. I have 12 binoculars and my favorites are my Zeiss FL's 8x32 and 8x42 and my Nikon EDG 8x32 and 8x42's and my Zeiss Conquest HD 8x56's. I have some new Nikon Monarch 5's 20x56 that are actually pretty cool. I bought it to see if Rico's theories are true and actually between the shakes I can see a heck of a lot of detail with it. It surprised me how good it is for $500.00 off of Ebay from Japan. The big Zeiss 8x56 Conquest is my favorite for the aberration free view when I am not hiking too far. I was just interested in this new Vortex UHD because of some of the good reviews on it. I have had some lemon's from Vortex in the past especially the MIC ones like many people but Vortex has always replaced them.
 
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"Where are you getting those numbers, Dennis? The EDG and the HT have the common pattern of fixed triplets consisting of a singlet and a cemented doublet with an air space between, followed by a singlet focusing element. I wouldn't argue that there are no doublets at all in current roof prism binoculars, but I can think of only one recent design that uses a fixed cemented doublet followed by a focusing singlet, the Zeiss SF. I suppose there could a clone or two of it or a similar old Swarovski doublet design."

From Scopeviews Reviews as quoted:

"As we will see, the EDG has top-line optical performance; it’s also very short. Given that some recent binoculars (e.g. Zeiss’ HTs) have six elements in their objectives alone, you’d think these Nikons were similarly packed with slivers of glass to achieve that combination. Not so. In fact the EDGs are a bit sparse on glass generally: whereas the HTs have no less than 14 optical elements per side, the EDG have just 9.You might ask how is this possible? Well part of the answer seems to be that although the main objective in the EDG is a doublet (with a further focusing element), it is an unusual design with a very thick rear element. This reminds me of a design of apochromatic telescope much discussed on the astro’ forums a few years ago and called, rather unglamorously, ‘The Brick’. I am completely guessing here, but I wonder if Nikon’s ability to make its own glasses allows a design not feasible with off-the-shelf blanks from the likes of Ohara that the other makers have to use."

http://scopeviews.co.uk/NikonEDG8x42.htm
 

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Dennis,

Sometimes a little alarm needs to go off in your head when you encounter something in a review that doesn't make sense. In this case somewhat misleading cutaways have been uncritically accepted at face value.

The Nikon cutaway misleads by failing to indicate cementings, so the fixed objective triplet, which consists of a singlet air spaced from a cemented doublet, was misread as a doublet with a "thick" second element. The little alarm should have indicated that the second thick lens has external curves that could never function as the curves of an appropriate mating singlet for the front singlet.

The EDGE and the HT objectives (see below) actually have the same 1-2 fixed triplet arrangement up front. The HT cutaway misleads by including dim straight lines that are supposed to represent the opposite edge of a single concave lens, not another element cemented to its back or front. Here the little alarm should have sounded at the crazy spectacle of a binocular containing two cemented triplets, one in the objective group and one in the eyepiece. Notice that if you subtract the dim straight line and the internal curved line of the cementing from the HT objective doublet you're left with a representation of a "thick" lens with external curves very much like the ones in the EDGE cutaway.
 

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I guarantee you if a UHD is $1400, and a mint/used SLC is $1500, 9 people out of 10 will choose Swaro. Oh, and last time I checked, optics are a subjective thing too.

The current (due to the SLC discount) streetprice (no VAT) for the US for a brand new 8x42SLC is 1.150,00 euro.

Jan
 
"Where are you getting those numbers, Dennis? The EDG and the HT have the common pattern of fixed triplets consisting of a singlet and a cemented doublet with an air space between, followed by a singlet focusing element. I wouldn't argue that there are no doublets at all in current roof prism binoculars, but I can think of only one recent design that uses a fixed cemented doublet followed by a focusing singlet, the Zeiss SF. I suppose there could a clone or two of it or a similar old Swarovski doublet design."

From Scopeviews Reviews as quoted:

"As we will see, the EDG has top-line optical performance; it’s also very short. Given that some recent binoculars (e.g. Zeiss’ HTs) have six elements in their objectives alone, you’d think these Nikons were similarly packed with slivers of glass to achieve that combination. Not so. In fact the EDGs are a bit sparse on glass generally: whereas the HTs have no less than 14 optical elements per side, the EDG have just 9.You might ask how is this possible? Well part of the answer seems to be that although the main objective in the EDG is a doublet (with a further focusing element), it is an unusual design with a very thick rear element. This reminds me of a design of apochromatic telescope much discussed on the astro’ forums a few years ago and called, rather unglamorously, ‘The Brick’. I am completely guessing here, but I wonder if Nikon’s ability to make its own glasses allows a design not feasible with off-the-shelf blanks from the likes of Ohara that the other makers have to use."

http://scopeviews.co.uk/NikonEDG8x42.htm

Ehhh..... Dennis,

Fact checking.
6 elements in objective?
14 elements each?

Jan
 

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The current (due to the SLC discount) streetprice (no VAT) for the US for a brand new 8x42SLC is 1.150,00 euro.

Jan
Boy, the SLC's are really being discounted. That is $1273.00 USD. I wonder if Swarovski is planning on discontinuing them in the near future? The lowest price I see in the states right now is $1549.00. I could see them discontinuing them if they don't sell well compared to the EL's. Just like Zeiss discontinued the HT's except for the 8x54.
 
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I received the Vortex Razor UHD 8x42's today and it was too dark to take a look through them but I will tomorrow. I happened to be at Cabella's today and I compared a Vortex Razor UHD 10x42 to a Vortex Razor 10x42 in the store. The UHD was noticeably brighter and sharper on-axis than the regular Razor. I found the ergonomics of the UHD to be better also even though it is larger and heavier. The eye cups work much smoother on the UHD and it also has a much better diopter setting on the eyepiece with continuous settings instead of clickstops. Here is a picture of the Vortex Razor UHD 8x42 , Zeiss FL 8x42 and the Nikon EDG 8x42 to compare size. Notice the similarity in shape and size of the UHD and the FL because of the bigger AK prisms. Also, notice how much farther the objectives are spaced on the UHD. This should give better 3D. One thing I am really curious about is the CA control on the FL versus the UHD. The FL IMO has always been the "King" of CA control but Vortex is advertising their new UHD as "Apochromatic" so I will be curious to see which one is better.
 

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I contacted Vortex Optic's and they said their Razor HD and Razor UHD for the objective lens use a true triplet Apochromatic lens system. All of their other roof prism binoculars use a doublet Achromat on their objective lens including their Viper HD, Diamondback HD and Crossfire fire HD.
 
OK, Dennis I'll go a little ways down the rabbit hole with you, but then I'm out and back to the adult world.

First, we can't even speculate about how good the color correction of any 42mm triplet is without knowing it's focal ratio and glass types. A marketing claim that such a lens is a "true triplet Apochromatic lens system" should be met with plenty of skepticism until it's tested (and I don't mean tested by just looking through the binocular). Now, at the risk of a little pedantry let's back up and examine the quality of the information about the UHD objective lens that Vortex' actually gives us. Here it is:

"Apochromatic (APO) Lenses
"Rather than the more widely used and less expensive achromatic doublet lens design that as the name suggests uses two lens elements within each lens, Vortex Razor UHD binoculars have apochromatic lenses that are usually made up of at least 3 lens elements.Whist this additional piece of glass in each lens is certainly one of the contributors to the instrument being both heavier and longer than average, the advantage is that instead of just two, an APO lens is able to focus three wavelengths of light onto a single point and thus are able to better reduce chromatic and spherical aberrations for a higher definition image."

The first sentence starts off forgivably wrong by calling the conventional cemented doublet used in binoculars an "achromatic doublet lens". It's a doublet alright, but at an aperture of 42mm and a focal ratio somewhere below f/4 such a lens doesn't even meet the minimum standard for an achromatic lens. There's a simple formula to determine the lowest focal ratio a conventional doublet can have and still meet the minimum standard of red and blue blurs three times the diameter of a focused green airy disk. That's N = 0.122D where N is the minimum focal ratio and D is the aperture in millimeters. So a 42mm conventional doublet needs to be f/5.1 to meet the minimum standard, which itself is none too good.

Then we are told that UHD binoculars have "apochromatic lenses that are usually made up of at least 3 lens elements" . So are the UHD objectives triplets or just "usually, at least" triplets?

Then we are told that "an APO lens is able to focus 3 wavelengths of light onto a single point". Presumably they mean their "APO" lens is able to focus blue, green and red to a single point. After ignoring violet that would be essentially perfect visual correction of longitudinal chromatic aberration, a very high standard. But then the next phrase says "and thus are better able to reduce chromatic and spherical aberrations". So which standard is met; perfect longitudinal CA correction for visual purposes or the lower fuzzy standard of "better" reduction of longitudinal CA compared to a conventional f/4 doublet? The latter I can believe, the former is "usually, at least" marketing BS when it's applied to fast binocular objectives.

As for the burning question of whether there are more triplets or doublets being used in current roof prism binoculars with internal focusing lets just say that both types can be found at all price points. Each belongs to a different historical line. The fixed triplets with moving negative focusing lenses go back to the original Leica Tronovid BAs from about 1990 and the fixed doublets with moving positive focusing lenses trace back to the 50/56mm Swarovski SLCs from the early 1990s. At the moment, at least among high end roofs the fixed triplets with negative focusing lenses prevail, with only the Zeiss SF (and I think some Meoptas) using fixed doublets with positive focusing lenses. I'll be happy to leave the chore of tallying up the doublets and triplets in all the inexpensive knock-offs to Dennis.

I'm jumping out of the hole now.
 
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OK, Dennis I'll go a little ways down the rabbit hole with you, but then I'm out and back to the adult world.
https://www.birdforum.net/images/smilies/cat.gif
First, we can't even speculate about how good the color correction of any 42mm triplet is without knowing it's focal ratio and glass types. A marketing claim that such a lens is a "true triplet Apochromatic lens system" should be met with plenty of skepticism until it's tested (and I don't mean tested by just looking through the binocular). Now, at the risk of a little pedantry let's back up and examine the quality of the information about the UHD objective lens that Vortex' actually gives us. Here it is:

"Apochromatic (APO) Lenses
"Rather than the more widely used and less expensive achromatic doublet lens design that as the name suggests uses two lens elements within each lens, Vortex Razor UHD binoculars have apochromatic lenses that are usually made up of at least 3 lens elements.Whist this additional piece of glass in each lens is certainly one of the contributors to the instrument being both heavier and longer than average, the advantage is that instead of just two, an APO lens is able to focus three wavelengths of light onto a single point and thus are able to better reduce chromatic and spherical aberrations for a higher definition image."

The first sentence starts off forgivably wrong by calling the conventional cemented doublet used in binoculars an "achromatic doublet lens". It's a doublet alright, but at an aperture of 42mm and a focal ratio somewhere below f/4 such a lens doesn't even meet the minimum standard for an achromatic lens. There's a simple formula to determine the lowest focal ratio a conventional doublet can have and still meet the minimum standard of red and blue blurs three times the diameter of a focused green airy disk. That's N = 0.122D where N is the minimum focal ratio and D is the aperture in millimeters. So a 42mm conventional doublet needs to be f/5.1 to meet the minimum standard, which itself is none too good.

Then we are told that UHD binoculars have "apochromatic lenses that are usually made up of at least 3 lens elements" . So are the UHD objectives triplets or just "usually, at least" triplets?

Then we are told that "an APO lens is able to focus 3 wavelengths of light onto a single point". Presumably they mean their "APO" lens is able to focus blue, green and red to a single point. After ignoring violet that would be essentially perfect visual correction of longitudinal chromatic aberration, a very high standard. But then the next phrase says "and thus are better able to reduce chromatic and spherical aberrations". So which standard is met; perfect longitudinal CA correction for visual purposes or the lower fuzzy standard of "better" reduction of longitudinal CA compared to a conventional f/4 doublet? The latter I can believe, the former is "usually, at least" marketing BS when it's applied to fast binocular objectives.

As for the burning question of whether there are more triplets or doublets being used in current roof prism binoculars with internal focusing lets just say that both types can be found at all price points. Each belongs to a different historical line. The fixed triplets with moving negative focusing lenses go back to the original Leica Tronovid BAs from about 1990 and the fixed doublets with moving positive focusing lenses trace back to the 50/56mm Swarovski SLCs from the early 1990s. At the moment, at least among high end roofs the fixed triplets with negative focusing lenses prevail, with only the Zeiss SF (and I think some Meoptas) using fixed doublets with positive focusing lenses. I'll be happy to leave the chore of tallying up the doublets and triplets in all the inexpensive knock-offs to Dennis.

I'm jumping out of the hole now.

Which leads us to the conclusion that the rep doesn't know his stuff or misleads his customers:-C
Which leaves me to the (unpleasant) conclusion I told the same story to mine.
So Henry, please go back into that hole and explain a bit more.

If I understand it correctly, we need a higher F ratio in a bin to get the APO factor working, but a 42mm bin has a to low F ratio to even get this working?

Jan
 
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Jan,

We'd still need to know the glass types to hazard a guess at what the minimum focal ratio needs to be. I guess I would add that this is a classic example of Bill Cook's "BB stacking". In this case Vortex has made the extravagant and really unnecessary claim of having stacked the BBs all the way to the ceiling. Objectives for low power binoculars don't really need to be true APOs any more than golf carts need to be powered by Ferrari engines. It's just one of those marketing things that sounds better and better the less you know.
 
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Jan,

We'd still need to know the glass types to hazard a guess at what the minimum focal ratio needs to be. I guess I would add that this is a classic example of Bill Cook's "BB stacking". In this case Vortex has made the extravagant and really unnecessary claim of having stacked the BBs all the way to the ceiling. Objectives for low power binoculars don't really need to be true APOs any more than golf carts need to be powered by Ferrari engines. It's just one of those marketing things that sounds better and better the less you know.

:-C:-C:-C
 
I'll just add one more thing. I don't think there is any real need for further correction of longitudinal chromatic aberration in binoculars. That aberration has been thoroughly brought to heel in modern ED binoculars, but plain old monochromatic spherical aberration, sphero-chromatism and lateral color still do visible damage to the image quality of most binoculars regardless of price.

I use a binocular that allows me to get a glimpse what is possible when those aberrations are better controlled than they are in any 42mm binocular I've seen yet, but it means applying the blunderbuss approach of using an 8x56, effectively stopped down to its center 20-30mm of aperture in daylight. I'd love to see a 8x42mm binocular with really good spherical corrections and no lateral color near the center of the field.

Henry
 
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Hi,

what Henry said is all correct. But there is two facts to note in addition...

- at a focal ratio of f4, building an apochromatic objective lens is difficult, regardless which of the much fought over definitions of apochromatic and objective construction is used. The limited aperture of 40mm helps a bit, but still...
On the other hand with hand-held binos you can't easily go for a much slower focal ratio due to size constraints. Objective constructions with large air space help a bit but are tricky mechanically and thus not much loved by manufacturers...

- for binoculars we do not really need an apochromatic objective by any of the different definitions. The magnification is low enough so we still have sufficient depth of focus to get all three colors inside it. The fact that different colors come to focus at different points is called longitudinal or axial chromatic aberration, btw. You can see it in plain glass spotting scopes, which tend to get a bit difficult to get to best focus beyond 40x or so.

- The purple/yellow fringes at high contrast edges we all hate are called transversal or lateral chromatic aberration. It mostly is generated by the eyepiece. It depends the number of optical surfaces and the objective focal ratio.

This puts the designer in a nice dilemma - very fast focal ratios like the f4 typical for binoculars call for complex EPs for a good view but on the other hand many surfaces in those stacks of glass increase transversal CA. For astro use there's also eyepieces with ED elements for better compensation.

Joachim
 
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