Dark Egret from Spain (1 Viewer)

Gonçalo Elias · Jan 22, 2020

Hi all,

I would like to have opinions about the ID of this dark Egret. Seen today at Isla Cristina, Andalusia, Spain (pictures by Renato Bagarrão).

Could it be a Western Reef? A dark Little Egret? A mutation? A hybrid (between what)?

Any opinions are welcome.

Thanks.
Gonçalo

Andy Adcock · Jan 22, 2020

Looks to be a dark form Reef Egret?

Gonçalo Elias · Jan 22, 2020

Thanks Andy, that was my first impression as well, I am just not sure how to rule out hybrids.

Simon Wates · Jan 22, 2020

Having only seen one

Western Reef Egret (Carrapateira, Portugal, 2000 - see on Gonçalo's website!) Id say the bird in question seems to have a slightly long and thin bill for a WRE, as well as a small amount of white on the outer wing. The contrast between the grey and white on the head seems to be not so contrasty and the overall shade of grey looks a bit pale. Maybe juv. WRE can look more like this. Its more likely I thought that this bird is a hybrid sibling, given that quite along time ago WRE bred in Doñana IIRC.

CARERY · Jan 23, 2020

...and it unfortunately has some oil staining to the left wing

lou salomon · Jan 23, 2020

it might be such a hybrid. but is there any visible reason for not calling it a dark morph little egret?

Larry Sweetland · Jan 23, 2020

Looks most like Little to me (or even Dimorphic).

Gonçalo Elias · Jan 27, 2020

Thanks everyone for the opinions.

Simon Wates said:
Having only seen one Western Reef Egret (Carrapateira, Portugal, 2000 - see on Gonçalo's website!) Id say the bird in question seems to have a slightly long and thin bill for a WRE, as well as a small amount of white on the outer wing. The contrast between the grey and white on the head seems to be not so contrasty and the overall shade of grey looks a bit pale. Maybe juv. WRE can look more like this. Its more likely I thought that this bird is a hybrid sibling, given that quite along time ago WRE bred in Doñana IIRC.

Hybrid is the possibility that is most oftion mentioned for this grey birds. The question is: hybrid between what species?

lou salomon said:
it might be such a hybrid. but is there any visible reason for not calling it a dark morph little egret?

Do dark morph Little Egrets exist at all?

Larry Sweetland said:
Looks most like Little to me (or even Dimorphic).

I'm not sure I understand your comment. Dimorphic is just another name for what used to be considered the Indian Ocean subspecies of WRE. Which of the two are you suggesting: LE or WRE?

Andy Adcock · Jan 27, 2020

Gonçalo Elias said:
Do dark morph Little Egrets exist at all?

Yes but very rare as far as I know.

Larry Sweetland · Jan 27, 2020

Gonçalo Elias said:
I'm not sure I understand your comment. Dimorphic is just another name for what used to be considered the Indian Ocean subspecies of WRE. Which of the two are you suggesting: LE or WRE?

Dimorphic Egret is currently treated as a full species using IOC taxonomy. I don't know how other authorities treat it. I was under the impression that they are structurally a bit more like Little, but I could well be wrong. The white patch on the leading edge of the wing reminded me of Dimorphic, as it's commonly found in dark morph Dimorphic. That's why I mentioned it, although I'm aware it would presumably be a very unlikely vagrant.

Andy Adcock · Jan 27, 2020

Larry Sweetland said:
Dimorphic Egret is currently treated as a full species using IOC taxonomy. I don't know how other authorities treat it. I was under the impression that they are structurally a bit more like Little, but I could well be wrong. The white patch on the leading edge of the wing reminded me of Dimorphic, as it's commonly found in dark morph Dimorphic. That's why I mentioned it, although I'm aware it would presumably be a very unlikely vagrant.

Form Larry form, they don't change colour!!!! :t:

Larry Sweetland · Jan 28, 2020

andyadcock said:
Form Larry form, they don't change colour!!!! :t:

Call it Diformic Egret if you like Andy, but the Field guide calls the colour forms mophs (rightly or wrongly)

Seth Miller · Jan 28, 2020

Larry Sweetland said:
Call it Diformic Egret if you like Andy, but the Field guide calls the colour forms mophs (rightly or wrongly)

Nice, almost read right over that.
:clap: :-O

Andy Adcock · Jan 28, 2020

Larry Sweetland said:
Call it Diformic Egret if you like Andy, but the Field guide calls the colour forms mophs (rightly or wrongly)

That would be a better name actually!

johnallcock · Jan 28, 2020

andyadcock said:
Form Larry form, they don't change colour!!!! :t:

Is this actually a distinction? I've never heard of colour morphs changing colour - in fact I thought it was a requirement that they retained the same plumage, otherwise it would be seasonal/age-related plumage variation.

Andy Adcock · Jan 28, 2020

johnallcock said:
Is this actually a distinction? I've never heard of colour morphs changing colour - in fact I thought it was a requirement that they retained the same plumage, otherwise it would be seasonal/age-related plumage variation.

It's not a thing that changes John as far as I'm aware, hence my dislike for the term.

The word 'phase' implies a transitory or alternating state which this is not.

lou salomon · Jan 28, 2020

1. dark little egret exists, i've seen one last year
2. what's wrong with the term 'morph'? it exactly means 'form' in greek language, it's identic - so why should 'morph' suggest that it changes colour (like in it is the case in 'phase').

Andy Adcock · Jan 28, 2020

lou salomon said:
1. dark little egret exists, i've seen one last year
2. what's wrong with the term 'morph'? it exactly means 'form' in greek language, it's identic - so why should 'morph' suggest that it changes colour (like in it is the case in 'phase').

But we're speaking English, not Greek.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/morphed

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/morph

Gwynn · Jan 28, 2020

andyadcock said:
But we're speaking English, not Greek.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/morphed

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/morph

And from your collins link
NOUN
biology
any of the different forms of individual found in a polymorphic species

dantheman · Jan 28, 2020

I think you'll find this is one of Andy's bugbears if you look for the topic on previous thread going back over the years ...

I get his point, but language is set by how it is used, not by rules imposed, in general I think.

Dark Egret from Spain (1 Viewer)

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