Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Discover the ZEISS Digital Nature Hub

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Reintroducing the lynx

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 15:22   #1
Gleb Berloff
sokol
 
Gleb Berloff's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 367
Reintroducing the lynx

Which animal would you most love to see reintroduced to England out of these animals:
1) White-tailed eagle
2) Lynx
3) Wolf
4) Bear
5) Wolverine
6) Eagle owl
7) Montagu's harrier
To be honest I would love all of them to be reintroduced. The white tailed eagle is back- and I would love to see them in the summer. I hate temperatures above 20 degrees, so would much rather visit the Highland than something like Spain. Montagu's harrier is almost extinct when it would love the marshes of East Anglia. Eagle owls are hanging on by their talon tips in the north amidst intense persecution- and they have been proven to belong to British fauna.
All because of stupid farmers. I can't believe the Parliament just doesn't force them to shut up. We don't have eagles in East Anglia because of them.
Deers are literally destroying he Caledonian forests because they devour regrowing pines in their huge numbers once controlled by wolves.
Bears would be wonderful for the Highland. Wolverines as well.
Of course, any of that can cause farmer hysteria. But there is one big difference with the lynx. It is almost there- it is almost back. Just like the police can protect the lady's slipper orchid from collectors, just like the RSPB protected the first ospreys from egg thieves, conservation organisations can protect lynx from being killed by farmers.
This petition is almost there:
https://www.change.org/p/environment...redirect=false
I don't know fit his is allowed to post here, I didn't find any rules prohibiting this. I am 18 years old so cannot contribute to this, but I am sure people here would either contribute or at least, please share this to anyone you know, on Facebook (which I don't have) or anything else. 8,771 out of 10,000 signatures. We can all do this, who is able to.
We brought the white-tailed eagle back, now let's bring the lynx back to where it belongs- in the UK.
Gleb Berloff is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 16:28   #2
Sangahyando
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Kiel
Posts: 1,977
WTE - will probably happen in the long run, as long as they're not systematically poached. They're already common in similar habitat here in Germany.
Lynx - if at all, maybe in Scotland and/or Wales.
Wolf - nope, would be a huge waste of tax money for no return. Don't see that happening, not even in Scotland. The island is just too densely populated for that. Plus, it's an island.
Bear - lol no.
Wolverine - I don't think the climate agrees with them, plus there's not enough carrion to go around. What would they eat, sheep?
Eagle Owl and Monty - probably.
Sangahyando is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 16:49   #3
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Switzerland/Poland
Posts: 4,393
I am rather confused by the legal situation in Britain concerning wild animals and right to reintroduce them. Just few points:

- Landowners with forestry could be a driving force to release lynx to reduce numbers and disperse deer, indeed.
- I doubt whether a landowner with forest could legally reintroduce lynx on his land, and how much say would his neighbors have.
- Lynx damage is a non-issue economically both for the state and individual farmers, because lynxes very rarely kill sheep. It is an issue of egos, lack of knowledge, some local politics etc.
- In Europe, monetary damage by lynx is paid centrally by the state.
- One could make an economic cost-benefit analysis of increased tourism, reduced forestry damage by deer and damage to sheep. Another question is, how to make the findings acceptable, and how possible is that the actual project would be vetoed by big egos nevertheless.
- Indeed, there is a issue of tragedy of veto - majority of society supports conservation, but decisive say have few locals who can block the issue.

White-tailed eagle will probably faster recolonize England naturally from Scotland and the continent, than a project could clear bureaucracy. Eagle owls are already present in small numbers. Indeed, several of most successful reintroductions in Britain occured by animals escaping from falconers, zoos or farms. But it is difficult to see it happening in case of lynx.

Last edited by jurek : Tuesday 4th August 2020 at 16:54.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 17:15   #4
Sangahyando
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Kiel
Posts: 1,977
Some people have put forward the notion of introducing Iberian Lynx instead of Eurasian Lynx, in order to create an additional refuge for the species. Sounds interesting IMO, but the problem is, where do you find enough Iberian Lynx to start a functional breeding population and also, will they be capable of preying on Roedeer and other small deer and mesopredators in the same way Eurasian Lynx do?
Sangahyando is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 17:40   #5
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 19,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
I am rather confused by the legal situation in Britain concerning wild animals and right to reintroduce them. Just few points:
The first hurdle is to prove that they were in fact, once native, debate for example over Eagle Owl.

As far as I'm aware, the only legal obstacle, would be the often, numerous challenges from unhappy locals for various reasons, see Beavers for an example.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 18:55   #6
Gleb Berloff
sokol
 
Gleb Berloff's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 367
I fully agree. With everything. No matter what, people will be opposed because of myths and paranoia. I would ignore the locals and show that there was no danger, but of course it is not up to me. In fact, good that, because I would have installed literally Draconian punishments for bird persecution :)
Beavers were successfully reintroduced, and I am delighted for that. Why were people unhappy with beavers?
Oh, capercaillie is back as well. I am sure farmers regard them more as delicious than collateral damage, and that is why I don't remember much opposition?
Of course, only native animals. The prime example of why this is mandatory is cane toad in Australia.
But lynx was proven to live here once- it died out 1,300 years ago
Eagle owl lived here as well, thousands of years ago, before dying out
Gleb Berloff is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 19:40   #7
Sangahyando
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Kiel
Posts: 1,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gleb Berloff View Post
I fully agree. With everything. No matter what, people will be opposed because of myths and paranoia. I would ignore the locals and show that there was no danger, but of course it is not up to me. In fact, good that, because I would have installed literally Draconian punishments for bird persecution :)
Beavers were successfully reintroduced, and I am delighted for that. Why were people unhappy with beavers?
Oh, capercaillie is back as well. I am sure farmers regard them more as delicious than collateral damage, and that is why I don't remember much opposition?
I'm afraid it's not that simple. While I can empathize with the frustration of being stuck with a much impoverished native terrestrial fauna (imagine living in a country with only four species of woodpeckers...), there are several things to note:
1) it's not always farmers that are opposed to reintroduction schemes, and not all farmers are ignorant either.
2) farmers and other rural land users need to be able to operate their business. Even in the least populated areas of Germany, wolves have proven to be disruptive and caused significant damage to some livestock owners. Making your pastures "wolf-proof" means a huge additional amount of labour, not all of which is compensated for by the state. And Britain is more densely inhabited than those regions, so the wolf option goes right out the window. Same for bears and wolverines.
3) The beaver introductions may have caused other kinds of damage. Plus, unregulated/illegal introductions are highly problematic from a conservation point of view.
4) Eagle Owls may have been native thousands of years ago, and they do have their benefits, eating crows, pigeons, rats, stray cats/dogs, and possibly Grey Squirrels. However, they dine on hedgehogs, buzzards, Tawny Owls, etc with equal enthusiasm, which could create problems down the road for some protected native species.

AFAIK Capers are also struggling, since they are not well adapted to disturbance and local abundances of predators (e.g. foxes). Either way, little to do with farmers, more with other land owners, hunters, foxes, cyclists, dog walkers, etc.

I do agree that lynx doesn't seem to be a problematic species, as far as I know. They also don't kill people, unlike some of the aforementioned critters.
Sangahyando is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 20:45   #8
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Switzerland/Poland
Posts: 4,393
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
The first hurdle is to prove that they were in fact, once native
Lynx were native to England:
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...dieval_Britain

This article also shows how full of gaps are historic records of wildlife in Britain, and further omissions come from too hesitant accepting of evidence or poor research. It reminds me also how past breeding of little egrets in Britain was not believed for decades, until they naturally recolonized England.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 5th August 2020, 17:50   #9
Gleb Berloff
sokol
 
Gleb Berloff's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 367
The best way to introduce I think is on a privately-owned land. The Cairngorms Reserve, for example, is private, and I think owls would flourish there without disturbance and an abundance of prey. Is it true that eagle owls can kill everything up to the size of a young deer? That could be a method of population control ever since wolves were wiped out.
I am convinced eagle owl is a native species. What I do not like is some of them living near hen harriers. Eagle owls are killers and they will kill hen harriers if they catch them. But I feel like they deserve to become permanent residents, no matter what farmers feel. Its not like it is an Ural owl being introduced. But I do like seeing them back for sure.
About lynx their predation of foxes is actually useful for farmers. And it is time we finally got back a big predator. I feel like wolves should be brought back as well, even bears.
Gleb Berloff is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 6th August 2020, 22:22   #10
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Switzerland/Poland
Posts: 4,393
About eventual white-tailed eagles in England:

The easiest method, within the means of one or few persons, would be to live-trap independent young birds in Poland or Germany 9with permissions etc etc), transport them to England and release immediately. The wild population grew that locally up to 100 WTEs of different ages gather together, and breeding territories are packed close together. I assume that if several young birds are together to England, they would not return back, having breeding partners around and would not want to go back to the area where few vacant territories exist.

Low cost and low complexity of the project outweighs problems, in my opinion, in the situation when the species is no longer very rare in Central Europe. There is a belief that young WTEs form attachment to the place where they fledged, but I think there are records of ringing birds speaking otherwise.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 7th August 2020, 17:47   #11
Gleb Berloff
sokol
 
Gleb Berloff's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 367
All true. There seem to be a lot of eagles around in some places in Scotland. Do you think someday it will surpass the golden eagle population?
Gleb Berloff is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 7th August 2020, 18:21   #12
Borjam
Registered User
BF Supporter 2020

 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Algorta Spain
Posts: 429
Spain has a long experience trying to recover lynx populations. And unfortunately it's very difficult. It's a long ranging predator that needs a big territory and prey. And every year several specimens are killed by traffic. In 2018 it was at least 27.

And Spain has large areas with a really low population density. Countries with a more humanized contryside can be even more difficult I'm afraid.
Borjam is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 8th August 2020, 14:35   #13
Gleb Berloff
sokol
 
Gleb Berloff's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 367
I agree, it would be difficult
Maybe this can be avoided by starting in the Highlands, away from most civilisation? Or in that fenced-off 50,000 acre reserve being thought about
Gleb Berloff is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 8th August 2020, 17:31   #14
Mono
Hi!
BF Supporter 2020
 
Mono's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Lake District,UK
Posts: 2,142
Set up a crowdfunder for this...
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property...-91777322.html
Mono is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 8th August 2020, 20:21   #15
opisska
Jan Ebr
 
opisska's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 1,988
I am surprised by the idea to introduce Lynx "on private land". How would you plan to make them stay there? Afaik Lynx is extremely mobile and will just wander to any distance if they feel like it. It will end like in the Czech Republic, with Lynx wandering out of protected areas and getting secretly shot - it's illegal, but it's guaranteed to happen and the hunters cover each other's backs and nobody ever finds out.

As other people said already, Wolf is outright silly; we have them naturally coming back in the Czech Republic and it's already not working very well, the country is just too densely populated - unlike NE Poland, where it works much better in the vast wilderness.
__________________
Birds: world 2170, WP 565, gWP 602, bird photos | Mammals: 260, mammal photos | Herps: 110, herp photos
opisska is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 8th August 2020, 20:44   #16
Gleb Berloff
sokol
 
Gleb Berloff's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 367
Someone aims to create a reserve with an electric fence. Wolf can be kept in there. It is either introduce these animals like bears and eagle-owls or see the Caledonian forests decimated by deer and capercaillie and Scottish crossbill extinct.
Gleb Berloff is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 9th August 2020, 09:02   #17
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 19,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
Lynx were native to England:
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...dieval_Britain

This article also shows how full of gaps are historic records of wildlife in Britain, and further omissions come from too hesitant accepting of evidence or poor research. It reminds me also how past breeding of little egrets in Britain was not believed for decades, until they naturally recolonized England.
Sorry, misread the post.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 9th August 2020, 19:04   #18
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Switzerland/Poland
Posts: 4,393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gleb Berloff View Post
All true. There seem to be a lot of eagles around in some places in Scotland. Do you think someday it will surpass the golden eagle population?
With reasonable protection it should happen, because white-tailed eagle habitat and food (large waters and coasts with fish and waterfowl) is much more common than golden eagle's. WTE is also commoner than GE in several countries in Europe, e.g. Germany and Poland.

However, how long it would take? With so low population of white-tailed eagles, probably none of people reading Birdforum now will see it in their lifetime. That is why I am in favor of often active conservation intervention. I want to see nature in my life, not hope that everything will turn good in future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by opisska View Post
I am surprised by the idea to introduce Lynx "on private land". How would you plan to make them stay there? Afaik Lynx is extremely mobile and will just wander to any distance if they feel like it.
Britain has weird (for Europeans) legal system, where wildlife is property of the land owner, not the common property. In principle, rights of a landowner who wants lynx should not be less than another who does not want one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by opisska View Post
It will end like in the Czech Republic, with Lynx wandering out of protected areas and getting secretly shot - it's illegal
Illegal killing is often a problem, but most countries like Germany, France and Spain managed to control it eventually. Probably also because hunters realize that their fear of predators were overblown.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 9th August 2020, 19:13   #19
opisska
Jan Ebr
 
opisska's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 1,988
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
Britain has weird (for Europeans) legal system, where wildlife is property of the land owner, not the common property. In principle, rights of a landowner who wants lynx should not be less than another who does not want one.
The point is, who is gonna tell the lynx? They will just leave.
__________________
Birds: world 2170, WP 565, gWP 602, bird photos | Mammals: 260, mammal photos | Herps: 110, herp photos
opisska is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 9th August 2020, 20:30   #20
Deb Burhinus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gleb Berloff View Post
Someone aims to create a reserve with an electric fence. Wolf can be kept in there. It is either introduce these animals like bears and eagle-owls or see the Caledonian forests decimated by deer and capercaillie and Scottish crossbill extinct.
Unfortunately there may be little than can save the C forests in the long term given their intolerance to a warming climate but putting up high fences to keep deer out maybe more effective in the short term than putting up fences to keep your wolves and bears in.

But seriously what does putting a wolf in a ‘reserve with an electric fence’ round it have anything to do with ‘reintroduction’? Wildlife safari parks and fenced in reserves is hardly integrated environmental management plan and will do little other than create a false sense of security that we are ‘helping nature’, when in fact we are more and more redefining the boundaries in which it may be allowed to flourish in order we may further trash the “leftover’.
__________________
___________________________
ORNITHOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF THE MIDDLE EAST
THE CAUCASUS AND CENTRAL ASIA
http://www.osme.org

Last edited by Deb Burhinus : Sunday 9th August 2020 at 20:35.
Deb Burhinus is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 10th August 2020, 05:00   #21
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 19,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
With reasonable protection it should happen, because white-tailed eagle habitat and food (large waters and coasts with fish and waterfowl) is much more common than golden eagle's. WTE is also commoner than GE in several countries in Europe, e.g. Germany and Poland.

.
On a trip to Sweden a few years ago, we had 26 in the sky at once, that was a sight!
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 10th August 2020, 14:05   #22
Gleb Berloff
sokol
 
Gleb Berloff's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 367
The huge reserve will ensure native species brought back without the threat of them being killed by grossly incompetent and prejudiced farmers
A lot of conservationists think reintroductions will help spare the forests, or at least deer culling is required, but wolves will do that for us. What's the point in being afraid of them? Farmers will never stop yelling- it is best if they are ignored and reintroductions carried out. The WTEs were met with extreme hatred and yet they are back in the skies. why can't wolf, bear, eagle owls and lynx be?
Gleb Berloff is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 10th August 2020, 14:44   #23
dwatsonbirder
Mostly off the radar
 
dwatsonbirder's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 3,120
Forgive me Gleb, but you appear to have a very idealistic and somewhat naive view on species reintroduction. In the UK, the current legislation ensures that any (re)introduction is subject to something called an EIA (Environmental Impact Assessment)* which is used to measure what the impacts that the proposed (re)introduction will have on the environment - this doesn't only cover flora and fauna, but also the landscape and the stakeholders involved.

Implying that all farmers are incompetent, ignorant, blood thirsty morons is quite wide of the mark, and suggests a certain amount of prejudice on your part - I have worked (and volunteered) in the environmental sector for over a decade (not long in comparison to many others here), and have found many who are indeed custodians of the countryside, and who are interested in conserving what species they have on their land, and also improving the habitat - admitted I have only met a tiny % of the total farming workforce, so it is difficult for me to form any kind of consensus.

Without getting too political, the current government is very, very unlikely to implement any positive changes which will benefit the environment, indeed it it looking to scrap much of the environmental legislation post-Brexit. The idea that they would fund or even consider a rewilding project is frankly laughable.

As much as I agree with your sentiments regarding rewilding and the introduction of apex predators, there are two major considerations 1) there is little money in conservation as it stands, and there is certainly no money for such landscape-scale projects and 2) there is insufficient unpopulated land with habitat continuity and agreeable landowners to support species such as Bears and Wolves. Lynx could be possible, but again, it would be difficult to undertake a full EIA given the range such species occupy, as well as ensuring that relevant mitigation is implemented.

It would be far better to spend the money on conserving species or habitats for which the UK is internationally important (seabird colonies, heathland, saltmarsh, coastal temperate rainforest etc) rather than pumping money into what is ultimately a vanity project with limited space, and ultimately reduced genetic flow.



*of note, AFAIK the controversial (and in my opinion idiotic) introduction of White Storks at Knepp was licenced without an EIA. I'm unsure of the mechanics of this from NE's perspective, and it is very unlikely that the project would have been given the green light had a competent ecologist had been able to undertake an EIA.
__________________
Kind regards, Daniel

@axbridge_birder
dwatsonbirder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 10th August 2020, 19:05   #24
Gleb Berloff
sokol
 
Gleb Berloff's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 367
Ok what do some conservation elites who call the idea idiotic have against white storks? They bred here 400 years ago. The beaver was returned- why can't the stork be returned?
And I am sure the project would have been given a green light. It is wonderful storks are back- and I am sure landowners in their right minds will have none of any conservation pro jibberish about them being a huge threat. A competent ecologist would have caused a full reintroduction.
Are you against dalmatian pelicans being reintroduced as well?
Are you against the beavers as well?
Will you be against the lammergeier in Derbyshire if it decides to take up residence?
I don't know why some of you are so against reintroduction of once-native species
Gleb Berloff is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 10th August 2020, 19:15   #25
Mono
Hi!
BF Supporter 2020
 
Mono's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Lake District,UK
Posts: 2,142
There is a legal process for (re)introducing species into Britain, are you advocating that that process should abolished. There should be a free for all, where anybody can just release what they like?
Mono is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Iberian lynx antuk Mammals 4 Tuesday 26th February 2019 20:50
Iberian Lynx Alvaro WILD ANDALUCIA Mammals 0 Monday 22nd January 2018 08:35
Canada Lynx borealowl47 Mammals 5 Sunday 13th March 2011 11:53
Reintroducing beavers KLH Other Wildlife 12 Wednesday 31st October 2007 11:35

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.16330791 seconds with 37 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 11:12.