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Clamorous Reed Warbler or Oriental Reed Warbler?

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Old Friday 19th January 2007, 05:04   #1
metroplex
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Clamorous Reed Warbler or Oriental Reed Warbler?

This photo was the Reed Warbler I saw in Chengdu city, southwest China, Oct 6th 2006. Can anybody help me identify which it is? or tell me the differences between Clamorous Reed Warbler(Acrocephalus stentoreus) and Oriental Reed Warbler(Acrocephalus orientalis).

Many thanks :)
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Old Friday 19th January 2007, 13:25   #2
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Hello there in China

Oriental Reed Warbler is between A.arundinaceus, orientalis and stenerous generally the least warm coloured bird. It mostly lacks the rufous tone to the upperparts and is browinsh olive-grey. Only when fresh, dark rufous above.The bird has often a streaked throat.Tips to the outer tailfeathers well defined and white.

http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/bi...ID=&pagesize=1
http://www.naturestops.com/gallery/p...u=6812%7C19%7C...
http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/fav...ers_grassbirds

Clamarous Reed finds in the mainland of Asia near Chengdu its most easterly distribution.(but again Indonesia and the Philippines)

Supposedly the short primary projection and the strong overall rufous colouration will lead us to Clamarous Reed. The bill is a bit hard to judge but seems long.
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Old Friday 19th January 2007, 14:46   #3
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I think this is a bit tricky, and might come down on Oriental Reed Warbler. Primary projection is not that much greater in Oriental Reed, and is hard to judge from this angle. I think the tertials may be too dark centered to be Clamorous, and the supercillium fits Oriental Reed better to, seemingly extending beyond the eye. Check out:

http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/se...Family_ID=&p=2

(make sure the whole address is in your address bar).

I'm prepared to be wrong on this though!

Paul.

Last edited by Frenchy : Friday 19th January 2007 at 14:51.
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Old Friday 19th January 2007, 16:41   #4
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This bird seems to be quite fresh plumage, eg. whitish primary tips.

The colour of the lower mandible fits maybe better to Oriental RW, therefore Clamorous RW has always dark tip in the lower mandible ( about 1/3 ~ 1/4) as in Great RW. According to the few photos, Oriental RW can be also sometimes some dark in the lower mandible, but not so extensively. I also think that dark colour in the lower mandible is more typical for Clamorous.

Supercilium continues less distinctly beyond the eye in both species, so probably it's quite depatable character. But probably it's still stronger beyond the eye in Oriental in most cases than Clamorous.

This bird has 5 or 6 primary tips beyond the tertials, so it's very similar in both species in fresh plumage.

Clamorous Reed in the follow link is quite interesting,... http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/warbler1.jpg

Now I'd say it's more Oriental, but study continue ...

Would you kindly attach bigger copy on that photo or another pic in this thread?

Last edited by hannu : Friday 19th January 2007 at 16:43.
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Old Friday 19th January 2007, 17:56   #5
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I really have great troubles in making this bird into one of the big Acrocephalus
Bill seems not that strong and not that long and tail a bit short.
I would not exclude a smaller Acrocephalus so quickly but I'm wrong very probably.

Do you have other pictures metroplex ?

Last edited by Th_SQ : Friday 19th January 2007 at 18:03.
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Old Friday 19th January 2007, 18:11   #6
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The primary project is extremely short though!
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Old Friday 19th January 2007, 18:32   #7
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amayae Clamorous and orientalis Oriental Reed belong to the most difficult subspecies between the two and those are the ones which occur in Southern China.
Some intergradation is suggested in literature.

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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 08:51   #8
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You will find few pics on Basra Reed Warbler (Acrocephalus griseldis) in the follow links, which is appr. same size as Clamorous (A. stentoreus)or Oriental Reed Warbler (A. orientalis). It does not look bigger Acro in many views...
It's sometimes difficult to realize and differ clearly the bigger Acros from the smaller Acros based on size in the pics.

http://jtenovuo.1g.fi/kuvat/20+kertu...09-05.jpg/full
http://jtenovuo.1g.fi/kuvat/20+kertu...09-05.jpg/full
http://jtenovuo.1g.fi/kuvat/20+kertu...09-05.jpg/full

Though this view angle is an extra difficulty in Metroplex's photo, but the bird looks quite "able-bodied" Acro. But that impression can be also illusion because of angle.

Only smaller Acro, which came to my mind and which can remind slightly this bird, is Blyth's Reed, but e.g. the colour of upperparts looks too dark and contrast between mantle and wings+tail is quite strong. Metroplex, what smaller Acro species you meet in the area?

This bird has a darkish loral area, but not darkish eye-stripe, which lead me to think that at least it's not Clamorous A. stentoreus. As far as I know, eye-stripe can lack or be weak in Oriental A. orientalis.

Bigger Acros have also relative short and less rounded tail. The shape of bill have quite long, more low-pitched in proportion to the lenght and looks quite dull in bigger Acros. Unfortunately the shape of bill does not show very clearly in Metroplex's pic!

Concerning to primary projection, it's very short in A. orientalis(~5-6 pf tips visible) and A. stentoreus (~5-7 pf tips visible), usually less than half of the lenght of tertials. That's very similar also in Blyth's Reed.
The length of pp in Great Reed Warbler A. arundinaceus is almost same or even longer than the lenght of tertials (in addition to 7-8 pf tips visible)
:scribe
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 10:57   #9
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Bigger Acros (Oriental?) from Japan
http://members.my.home.ne.jp/shoubou/ooyosikiri-2.jpg
http://encyberimg.encyber.com/dicima.../16/221616.jpg
http://okayamanoyama.web.infoseek.co...ri_01_1024.jpg
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/nogawa/hake/b...ooyosikiri.jpg
http://www.ous.ac.jp/DAS/math/yokoga.../yosikiri4.jpg
http://www.ous.ac.jp/DAS/math/yokoga.../yosikiri5.jpg
http://torimiyuyu.blog16.fc2.com/blog-category-137.html
http://homepage1.nifty.com/iga/molten/ooyosikiri.JPG
http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~iwaki/yach...yosikiri-1.jpg
http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~iwaki/yach...yosikiri-2.jpg
http://www.geocities.jp/kata04jpnisi/ooyosikiri.htm
http://www.sakai.zaq.ne.jp/duagz909/...oyosikiri.html
http://f44.aaa.livedoor.jp/~mstone/w...ooyosikiri.htm
http://www5.ocn.ne.jp/~vtz/ooyosikiri.htm
http://www.kyoto-umedu.jp/jiman/yatyo/ooyosikiri.html
http://www.gt-works.com/yachoo/zukan...ooyosikiri.jpg
http://www.qsr.mlit.go.jp/oita/oono_...ooyosikiri.jpg
http://nobphoto.sakura.ne.jp/06.05/m...yosikiri02.jpg
http://homepage3.nifty.com/alba/star...sikiri0521.jpg
http://rbwc.jp/konsyuu/0604k/21Kt-ooyosikiri.jpg
http://mailsrv.nara-edu.ac.jp/~inoue...oyosikiri4.jpg
http://ogata582.web.infoseek.co.jp/ooyosikiri050710
http://www2.cds.ne.jp/~redfox/bird/h...oyosikiri2.jpg
http://y-hirori.hp.infoseek.co.jp/oo...riDscn4564.jpg
http://mozu.air-nifty.com/bl/images/...kiri060426.jpg
http://birdmuromi.cool.ne.jp/kansats...osikiri_01.jpg
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 11:53   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannu
Basra Reed Warbler
Basra has huge primary projection ! This bird has very short wings, hardly reaching upper-tail coverts ....
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 12:10   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Th_SQ
Basra has huge primary projection ! This bird has very short wings, hardly reaching upper-tail coverts ....
Prim proj looks indeed long in the 2nd pic. According to Svensson, A. orientalis wing 77-91mm, A.griseldis 78-88 mm, A.stentoreus ?, A.scirpaceus 62-73mm....
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 12:26   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannu
Prim proj looks indeed long in the 2nd pic. According to Svensson, A. orientalis wing 77-91mm, A.griseldis 78-88 mm, A.stentoreus ?, A.scirpaceus 62-73mm....
Wing length is not primary projection ...
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 13:18   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Th_SQ
Wing length is not primary projection ...
But you refered to bird's short wings, so the difference in wing length between these species is sometimes quite difficult to realize...
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 14:35   #14
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To be informative on occurence of smaller Acro's:

Blyth's Reed, Blunt-winged, Black-browed Reed and Manchurian Reed Warbler all may have a migratory occurence in Chengdu and Paddyfield Warbler may touch the area as a winter bird.
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 14:58   #15
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This bird is not Blyth's Reed Warbler A. dumetorum,
http://www.club300.pl/zaroslowkaMPol040606.html
http://www.hi.is/~gunnih/pic/acrdum_skala2.jpg

nor Black-browed Reed Warbler A. bistrigiceps
http://encyberimg.encyber.com/dicima.../86/244486.jpg
http://encyberimg.encyber.com/dicima.../87/244487.jpg

Nor Manchurian Reed Warbler A. tangorum
http://www.birdskorea.org/images/man27.jpg
http://orientalbirdimages.org/images...orum%20pdr.jpg

Nor Blunt-winged Warbler A. concinens
http://orientalbirdimages.org/images...bler_2_obi.jpg
http://orientalbirdimages.org/images...bler_1_obi.jpg
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 15:52   #16
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Exactly Hannu! and thanks for the linking.

For these both subspecies of Oriental Reed and Clamorous Reed, a fresh plumage would show in the middle of October. They both just finished their moult.
Even so, I find the primary projection of 5 extending feathers and the colour for both upperparts and underparts not convincing for the former.
For the headpattern I am divided, perhaps the complex of features in front of the eye may apply better to Oriental, but the super only shows 1 tiny litle streak pale behind the eye which is not so good for a typical one but rather better for Clamorous.

Oriental Reed shows a more pink colour to the bill than Clamorous.
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 16:13   #17
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Even the follow Clamorous has very worn plumage, it has dark eye-stripe behind the eye. The supercilium can be less distinct (rather diffuse) in worn individuals...
http://www.pbase.com/elroyie/clamorous_reedwarbler

Last edited by hannu : Saturday 20th January 2007 at 16:20.
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 16:20   #18
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How about that secondary panel in the wing ?
Does it only clear in fresh plumage?
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 16:39   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannu
Thanks gerdwichers8 for the list. Ok, it may not be a small Acros but it's interesting that Paddyfield is possible ....

Hannu, do you really see anything in common between the bird and these pictures of Clamourous ?????
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 16:50   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Th_SQ
Thanks gerdwichers8 for the list. Ok, it may not be a small Acros but it's interesting that Paddyfield is possible ....

Hannu, do you really see anything in common between the bird and these pictures of Clamourous ?????
I don't understand, what is your purpose in your question????
Both are Acro ?

Last edited by hannu : Saturday 20th January 2007 at 16:56.
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 16:54   #21
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I'm pretty sure that my out of context guess on this bird would have been Paddyfield! I see a rather fine bill for a Large Acro!
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 17:13   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannu
Both are Acro ?
Lol, for sure

I have the same feeling as Jane since the beginning ...
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 17:24   #23
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E.g. the length of supercilium does not fit to Paddyfied very well.
http://www.virtual-bird.com/birds/acragr002he.jpg
http://www.skof.se/fbo/news/bilder/A...24_520x347.jpg
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/photo/a_agricola_01.php
http://www.merenkurkunlty.net/pics/a...070687ons2.jpg
http://galdur.is/vefhotel/myndir/BAdvalsongvari.jpg

We don't find possibly one conclusion from this bird if we don't get another pic...
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 17:28   #24
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The size is quite relative feature in some cases, because the biggest small Acro has almost same size as smallest Large Acro (at least for the lenght of wing). But the view angle is very difficult....and very seldom we see pics in fresh plumage birds...

Last edited by hannu : Saturday 20th January 2007 at 17:33.
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Old Saturday 20th January 2007, 17:39   #25
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For the comparision:
Oriental Reed Warbler.....
http://sjl.csie.chu.edu.tw/phpBB2/fi...5v0610_682.jpg
http://sjl.csie.chu.edu.tw/phpBB2/fi...5v0243_295.jpg
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