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Panasonic going full frame (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter nikonmike
- Start date
StephenHampshire
Well-known member
Now that would be interesting....I have a full frame DSLR, but I've always liked the way Panasonic do things (I also have a FZ1000)
Vespobuteo
Well-known member
Using the Leica SL mount and existing Leica lenses perhaps? Sound nice but expensive.
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Vespobuteo
Well-known member
Apparently not using Leica SL mount.
https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-pa...nt-not-leica-sl-mount-and-ship-in-march-2019/
Olympus sticking to MFT sensor it seems:
https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-the-ne...nced-in-january-and-feature-a-new-mft-sensor/
https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-pa...nt-not-leica-sl-mount-and-ship-in-march-2019/
Olympus sticking to MFT sensor it seems:
https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-the-ne...nced-in-january-and-feature-a-new-mft-sensor/
Seems silly to me.
Leica has been doing lenses for Panasonic for years, what is the advantage of offering two incompatible mounts from the same stable?
More generally, it seems peculiar that mounts have proliferated while unit sales are stagnant. Is there any plausible logic for this?
Leica has been doing lenses for Panasonic for years, what is the advantage of offering two incompatible mounts from the same stable?
More generally, it seems peculiar that mounts have proliferated while unit sales are stagnant. Is there any plausible logic for this?
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Certainly a plethora of mounts, though largely dictated by the physics required. :cat:
This is no VHS style industry collaboration - hopefully if this rumour is true, Panasonic might adopt the Nikon Z mount dimensions ..... 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' .......
If anything, I think this will all be about 8K broadcasting ..... eventually.
Certainly HD, maybe aiming for 4K reporting at the 2020 Olympics, so setting up the FF format and mount for that now .....
https://www.redsharknews.com/produc...e-your-gh5s-as-a-primary-camera-for-broadcast
"Low noise is a key to more dynamic range, because detail can be pushed out of shadows in the grade."
Chosun :gh:
This is no VHS style industry collaboration - hopefully if this rumour is true, Panasonic might adopt the Nikon Z mount dimensions ..... 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' .......
If anything, I think this will all be about 8K broadcasting ..... eventually.
Certainly HD, maybe aiming for 4K reporting at the 2020 Olympics, so setting up the FF format and mount for that now .....
https://www.redsharknews.com/produc...e-your-gh5s-as-a-primary-camera-for-broadcast
"Low noise is a key to more dynamic range, because detail can be pushed out of shadows in the grade."
Chosun :gh:
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To me, expanding their collaboration with Leica was the only logical way that Pana could go full frame and potentially succeed. Still, I don't see this as interesting from a birding point of view for a long time yet (due to lack of a really long lens). Even if the sigma 150-600 gets an L-mount variant, that is not the same reach as my PL100-400 on a m43 camera.
Niels
Niels
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Is the Leica L mount confirmed?
That would hamstring the development long term compared to the Nikon Z and even Canon RF.
Sharing the Nikon Z mount would have been a master stroke that would open up a whole host of possibilities. I'm not sure how that would go down with the terms of any agreements with Leica though .......
Chosun :gh:
That would hamstring the development long term compared to the Nikon Z and even Canon RF.
Sharing the Nikon Z mount would have been a master stroke that would open up a whole host of possibilities. I'm not sure how that would go down with the terms of any agreements with Leica though .......
Chosun :gh:
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Vespobuteo
Well-known member
"And so all cards are on the table now: ON September 25 Leica, Sigma and Panasonic will announce a new profound partnership. Together they will develop cameras and lenses based on the Leica SL mount."
https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/wt...evelop-the-full-frame-sl-mount-camera-system/
"The L-Mount has an inner diameter of 48.8mm and a flange depth of 20.0mm [2] The L-mount exists in two versions, an APS-C version (TL) and a full frame version (SL). The two versions are mechanically and electronically compatible. TL lenses mounted on the SL will cause the camera to use a 10 Mpix crop-mode from the center of the sensor, corresponding to the APS-C coverage of the lens. SL lenses mounted on TL cameras function normally, providing a 1.5x crop field of view, as is typical with APS-C cameras."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leica_L-Mount
I guess Sigma could adapt their long lenses pretty quick.
But maybe this will be more video-centric cameras.
I don't doubt that Panasonic will make the best FF mirrorless video centric camera on the market though
with large controls & good ergonomics (Sony hint..),
no 1.7x crop in 4k (Canon hint..), dual card slots (Nikon hint..),
and excellent battery life (Fujifilm hint..).
https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/wt...evelop-the-full-frame-sl-mount-camera-system/
"The L-Mount has an inner diameter of 48.8mm and a flange depth of 20.0mm [2] The L-mount exists in two versions, an APS-C version (TL) and a full frame version (SL). The two versions are mechanically and electronically compatible. TL lenses mounted on the SL will cause the camera to use a 10 Mpix crop-mode from the center of the sensor, corresponding to the APS-C coverage of the lens. SL lenses mounted on TL cameras function normally, providing a 1.5x crop field of view, as is typical with APS-C cameras."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leica_L-Mount
I guess Sigma could adapt their long lenses pretty quick.
But maybe this will be more video-centric cameras.
I don't doubt that Panasonic will make the best FF mirrorless video centric camera on the market though
with large controls & good ergonomics (Sony hint..),
no 1.7x crop in 4k (Canon hint..), dual card slots (Nikon hint..),
and excellent battery life (Fujifilm hint..).
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Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Well, that's interesting then !
The Leica SL mount is very similar dimensionally to Sony's FE mount. Neither is in the box seat compared to Nikon's Z mount which is the most well thought out and future proof FF mirrorless mount.
Where Nikon will run into difficulties strategically will be in getting lenses to market to flesh out the Z system ostensibly on its own (Tamron, Tokina seem the only viable third partys for purpose designed lenses).
I wish Nikon would have paid more attention to me and done more to wrap Panasonic up in it's Z mount.
The situation going forward now is that Sigma will 'probably' design lenses for the Sony /Panasonic mounts, and then slightly adapt for Canon and Nikon via empty space at the mount end. This means slightly longer and heavier lenses for Canon and Nikon than purpose designed jobbies.
I also expect a strong product response from Sony to these 3 late comers to the FF mirrorless scene -- so a pretty good time to be a camera gear head and photographer :t:
Chosun :gh:
The Leica SL mount is very similar dimensionally to Sony's FE mount. Neither is in the box seat compared to Nikon's Z mount which is the most well thought out and future proof FF mirrorless mount.
Where Nikon will run into difficulties strategically will be in getting lenses to market to flesh out the Z system ostensibly on its own (Tamron, Tokina seem the only viable third partys for purpose designed lenses).
I wish Nikon would have paid more attention to me and done more to wrap Panasonic up in it's Z mount.
The situation going forward now is that Sigma will 'probably' design lenses for the Sony /Panasonic mounts, and then slightly adapt for Canon and Nikon via empty space at the mount end. This means slightly longer and heavier lenses for Canon and Nikon than purpose designed jobbies.
I also expect a strong product response from Sony to these 3 late comers to the FF mirrorless scene -- so a pretty good time to be a camera gear head and photographer :t:
Chosun :gh:
Chosun, if you are not aware, Pana has a long-standing relationship with Leica. There were rumors that the Leica FF mirrorless was mostly Pana design when it appeared, just as some of the smaller Leica cameras lately have been more or less indistinguishable from Pana cameras. At the lens side, several of the best m43 lenses from Pana carry both names.
I have not seen Nikon have a similar relationship with anybody. However, Sigma has a tradition of making lenses for all mounts that sell well enough that it pays, so if nikon's mirrorless starts selling then I would guess you could get sigma lenses for that as well.
Niels
I have not seen Nikon have a similar relationship with anybody. However, Sigma has a tradition of making lenses for all mounts that sell well enough that it pays, so if nikon's mirrorless starts selling then I would guess you could get sigma lenses for that as well.
Niels
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Hi Niels, yes, I'm well aware of the relationship between Panasonic and Leica, and the 'badge engineering' involved.
This deal makes sense for Sigma since it could quite easily convert it's existing lenses from its Sony range.
The FF mirrorless lens mount battle is now pretty much split down the middle in terms of physical dimensions - Sony/Pana/Leica v's Canon/Nikon. The first group has a good population of lenses (and/or easier conversions), while the second group's lens range is in its infancy and will take quite some effort and time to populate.
It is interesting when you look at who makes up the groups too - the first group are the electronics upstarts - with a long history of competition between the two (along with collaborations with traditional camera makers Leica and Olympus), while the second group consists of the traditional camera industry stalwarts - again huge competitors with each other. Very interesting the way it has panned out !
As far as third party lenses will now go for the CaNikon mirrorless offerings they will either fall into one of two camps:
(i) they will be converted (rather involved) from the existing Sony range, and be less than ideal (in terms of compactness, weight, cost, and that last bit of optical performance) compared to what the mounts could offer, but will appear much sooner than the second case .....
(ii) lenses will be purpose designed for the wider ('shallower' for Nikon too) mount. This will result in lenses that are just that tiny bit more compact, lighter, cheaper to produce (notice I didn't say buy !
, and maximize the optical benefits of these wider optimal mounts (this will be particularly evident at wide and fast formats). This road of course will take longer to travel.
Any third party lens maker is going to have to come up with something pretty special to outdo the CaNikon duo - look for some cheeky offerings that plug the gaps. The mirrorless market is going to be a bit of a 'bitzer' going forward and take a very slow evolutionary path.
I don't think any of the big camera brands has (or will in the short term) landed the knock out blow to lure customers from rival brands (and to a lesser extent, systems). It will be a terse (and at times both exciting and frustrating for the consumer) battle for hearts, minds, and wallets over the ensuing years. :cat:
Ultimately Nikon has put itself in the box seat, but I wouldn't expect them to become dominant (in performance terms of the market) due to resources/lack of partners, until this flat plane sensor caper is nearly done and dusted and then the whole game starts anew in a decade in the curved sensor arena ........
I expect a strong product response from Sony if they are to be any hope of retaining let alone increasing their market share. Interesting, good, (if not exactly cheap :-O ) times to be a buyer in the mirrorless market going forward :cat:
Chosun :gh:
This deal makes sense for Sigma since it could quite easily convert it's existing lenses from its Sony range.
The FF mirrorless lens mount battle is now pretty much split down the middle in terms of physical dimensions - Sony/Pana/Leica v's Canon/Nikon. The first group has a good population of lenses (and/or easier conversions), while the second group's lens range is in its infancy and will take quite some effort and time to populate.
It is interesting when you look at who makes up the groups too - the first group are the electronics upstarts - with a long history of competition between the two (along with collaborations with traditional camera makers Leica and Olympus), while the second group consists of the traditional camera industry stalwarts - again huge competitors with each other. Very interesting the way it has panned out !
As far as third party lenses will now go for the CaNikon mirrorless offerings they will either fall into one of two camps:
(i) they will be converted (rather involved) from the existing Sony range, and be less than ideal (in terms of compactness, weight, cost, and that last bit of optical performance) compared to what the mounts could offer, but will appear much sooner than the second case .....
(ii) lenses will be purpose designed for the wider ('shallower' for Nikon too) mount. This will result in lenses that are just that tiny bit more compact, lighter, cheaper to produce (notice I didn't say buy !
, and maximize the optical benefits of these wider optimal mounts (this will be particularly evident at wide and fast formats). This road of course will take longer to travel.Any third party lens maker is going to have to come up with something pretty special to outdo the CaNikon duo - look for some cheeky offerings that plug the gaps. The mirrorless market is going to be a bit of a 'bitzer' going forward and take a very slow evolutionary path.
I don't think any of the big camera brands has (or will in the short term) landed the knock out blow to lure customers from rival brands (and to a lesser extent, systems). It will be a terse (and at times both exciting and frustrating for the consumer) battle for hearts, minds, and wallets over the ensuing years. :cat:
Ultimately Nikon has put itself in the box seat, but I wouldn't expect them to become dominant (in performance terms of the market) due to resources/lack of partners, until this flat plane sensor caper is nearly done and dusted and then the whole game starts anew in a decade in the curved sensor arena ........
I expect a strong product response from Sony if they are to be any hope of retaining let alone increasing their market share. Interesting, good, (if not exactly cheap :-O ) times to be a buyer in the mirrorless market going forward :cat:
Chosun :gh:
Vespobuteo
Well-known member
The strategy is to keep existing customers.
For Panasonic it's crucial not loosing more customers to the FF offerings.
This camera will most likely add to the top end of the Panasonic line.
Same feature set as the GH5 or even GH5S hopefully but with IBIS.
Price point will be very interesting to see.
Probably closer to 3k (or 3k+) than 2k €.
A bit less expensive FF models might follow, but I'm not sure of that.
MFT format will stay put in the low and mid segment.
For Panasonic it's crucial not loosing more customers to the FF offerings.
This camera will most likely add to the top end of the Panasonic line.
Same feature set as the GH5 or even GH5S hopefully but with IBIS.
Price point will be very interesting to see.
Probably closer to 3k (or 3k+) than 2k €.
A bit less expensive FF models might follow, but I'm not sure of that.
MFT format will stay put in the low and mid segment.
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The rumor site claims two models to start with, a high and a more entry level, both with IBIS, and one with
– 150 Megapixel stills in Pixel Shift mode and price below Sony A9, the other more ordinary. https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-more-p...-no-8k-and-new-panasonic-manufactured-sensor/
Niels (who still don't think FF will be in my future)
– 150 Megapixel stills in Pixel Shift mode and price below Sony A9, the other more ordinary. https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-more-p...-no-8k-and-new-panasonic-manufactured-sensor/
Niels (who still don't think FF will be in my future)
Vespobuteo
Well-known member
Seems that that PanaLeica is going directly at the Nikon Z6/Z7:s and not Canon R.
Guess the entry level might be around $2k+ like the Z6 and the $4,000 model will compete with Z7.
How these will be positioned vs the G9, GH5 and GH5S will be interesting to see, feature set etc.
50MP is really not optimal or even needed for 4K or low light video. Maybe they will be more stills oriented cameras but with clearly better video features than Nikon and Canon? And GH5S will remain the "semi to pro-videographers" option?
"Panasonic high End Full Frame camera
– Close to 50 Megapixels
– L-mount
– Panasonic designed and manufactured sensor
– 4k60p
– IBIS
– 150 Megapixel stills in Pixel Shift mode
– Dual card slot (one card should be SD)
– Price below the Sony A9 (close to $4,000)
Panasonic entry level Full Frame camera
– 20+ megapixels
– L-mount
– Panasonic designed and manufactured sensor
– 4k60p
– IBIS
– Dual card slot (one card should be SD)
Panasonic FF lenses
– 24-70mm
– 70-200mm
– 50mm"
https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/ne...mage-and-full-panasonic-l-mount-camera-specs/
Guess the entry level might be around $2k+ like the Z6 and the $4,000 model will compete with Z7.
How these will be positioned vs the G9, GH5 and GH5S will be interesting to see, feature set etc.
50MP is really not optimal or even needed for 4K or low light video. Maybe they will be more stills oriented cameras but with clearly better video features than Nikon and Canon? And GH5S will remain the "semi to pro-videographers" option?
"Panasonic high End Full Frame camera
– Close to 50 Megapixels
– L-mount
– Panasonic designed and manufactured sensor
– 4k60p
– IBIS
– 150 Megapixel stills in Pixel Shift mode
– Dual card slot (one card should be SD)
– Price below the Sony A9 (close to $4,000)
Panasonic entry level Full Frame camera
– 20+ megapixels
– L-mount
– Panasonic designed and manufactured sensor
– 4k60p
– IBIS
– Dual card slot (one card should be SD)
Panasonic FF lenses
– 24-70mm
– 70-200mm
– 50mm"
https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/ne...mage-and-full-panasonic-l-mount-camera-specs/
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Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Whether the 'entry' level models are 24 or 30MP doesn't matter that much. It's clear that all the big players are going for pretty much identical 'two tier' type product strategies. If the hi-res models offer over sampling for 4K video rather than binning, that will prove useful.
I tend to agree with etudiant, whether we see pixel shift, even higher resolutions of 70~100MP+, hi-speed sports models a 'la Sony's a9, 8K, or even finally perfected global shutter and the elimination of the mechanical mechanism, there's really not that much compelling advances to significantly grow the market. Lightweight high quality lenses like the new Canon Mk III's, Sony 400 2.8 GM, and the diffractive Canon DO's (hurry up the 600 f4 !) and Nikon PF's (c'mon the 600 and then f4's !) will be key .....
It will be a dog fight for scraps - even among the big 4/5 ..... I wouldn't like to be smaller players like Pentax etc ......
Chosun :gh:
I tend to agree with etudiant, whether we see pixel shift, even higher resolutions of 70~100MP+, hi-speed sports models a 'la Sony's a9, 8K, or even finally perfected global shutter and the elimination of the mechanical mechanism, there's really not that much compelling advances to significantly grow the market. Lightweight high quality lenses like the new Canon Mk III's, Sony 400 2.8 GM, and the diffractive Canon DO's (hurry up the 600 f4 !) and Nikon PF's (c'mon the 600 and then f4's !) will be key .....
It will be a dog fight for scraps - even among the big 4/5 ..... I wouldn't like to be smaller players like Pentax etc ......
Chosun :gh:
Vespobuteo
Well-known member
S1R (47MP) and S1 (24MP) are the new models for 2019. They look pretty close to the G9 in size and controls.
No phase detect on sensor for AF it seems. Only Contrast detect, DFD and "AI Deep Learning" is mentioned.
Dual card slots (XQD + SD).
Dual IS (lens + IBIS).
Operates in low temperature, I thought they said -40°C but not sure...that's pretty cold...
100 environmental seals against moisture and dust.
Lumix pro services & support expanded: https://lumixpro.panasonic.com
S1 with 24MP seems to be the video centric version.
Very limited info on lenses, first three are 50/1.4, 24-100mm and 70-200mm.
The L-mount has 51.6* mm diameter, Nikon Z:s 55 mm and Sony E 46mm. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me. The use for f0.95 or even f1.2 lenses is quite limited IMO.
Panasonics press event:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuxXBRLaqyw
*L-mount:
https://l-mount.com/en/Q-and-A
It is equally suitable for both APS-C format and full-frame cameras. The advantages are a large inner diameter of 51.6 mm that enables the realisation of extremely fast lenses and, at the same time, extremely compact dimensions that permit the construction of compact APS-C format system cameras.
No phase detect on sensor for AF it seems. Only Contrast detect, DFD and "AI Deep Learning" is mentioned.
Dual card slots (XQD + SD).
Dual IS (lens + IBIS).
Operates in low temperature, I thought they said -40°C but not sure...that's pretty cold...
100 environmental seals against moisture and dust.
Lumix pro services & support expanded: https://lumixpro.panasonic.com
S1 with 24MP seems to be the video centric version.
Very limited info on lenses, first three are 50/1.4, 24-100mm and 70-200mm.
The L-mount has 51.6* mm diameter, Nikon Z:s 55 mm and Sony E 46mm. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me. The use for f0.95 or even f1.2 lenses is quite limited IMO.
Panasonics press event:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuxXBRLaqyw
*L-mount:
https://l-mount.com/en/Q-and-A
It is equally suitable for both APS-C format and full-frame cameras. The advantages are a large inner diameter of 51.6 mm that enables the realisation of extremely fast lenses and, at the same time, extremely compact dimensions that permit the construction of compact APS-C format system cameras.
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