Richard Klim
-------------------------
Daniel, is that dates (as in time of year), or dates (Phoenix dactylifera)?
Perhaps both?
Richard
-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Italian Sparrow (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Rick Wright Tucson
- Start date
Daniel, is that dates (as in time of year), or dates (Phoenix dactylifera)?
Perhaps both?
Richard
Daniel Philippe
Well-known member
Daniel, is that dates (as in time of year), or dates (Phoenix dactylifera)?
Perhaps both?
Or … they are not very faithful and after the breeding season they move around to look for other dates (Passer libertinus).
Last edited:
Daniel Philippe
Well-known member
More or less the same in Isenmann & al. 2005 (Les oiseaux de Tunisie) :
« There appear to be four groups :
1 birds with grey caps (domesticus)
2 birds with brown heads and black patterning on the flanks (hispaniolensis)
3 birds of the phenotype italiae with brown heads
4 hybrids which are generally very variable »
My observations were around Sousse as well as south of there, in mid winter. The birds were close enough to Spanish sparrows as shown in the book we used that we never thought anything was funny. And we did have a couple of very unexpected observations of other things.
Niels
Niels
Richard Klim
-------------------------
You trumped me there, Daniel. You probably have a much better grasp of the ambiguities of the English language than many natives!Or … they are not very faithful and after the breeding season they move around to look for other dates (Passer libertinus).
Richard :t:
KFC
Ken Tucker
Just found my old notebook. It was December 2004 and I note that in Sousse I observed that the sparrows resembled Italian sparrows but that on the edge of the Sahara just south of Zafraane they resembled pure Spanish sparrows.
Ken
foxsparrow
Italian Birder
Hello ! Sorry to arrive so late in the discussion (even I search daily in the forum the words "Italy" and "Italian"). This was posted in my blog on 27th July 2006
"Tunisia, a sparrow's puzzle"
http://www.surfbirds.com/blog/birdingitalynet/2228/Tunisia,+a+sparrow's+puzzle..html
"Tunisia, a sparrow's puzzle"
http://www.surfbirds.com/blog/birdingitalynet/2228/Tunisia,+a+sparrow's+puzzle..html
Attachments
foxsparrow
Italian Birder
If they want to study REALLY the situation in the field, they may visit the Po Delta, NE Italy, were Passer domesticus italiae (neither Passer italiae nor Passer hispaniolensis italiae or -worst- Passer italiae italiae) and Passer hispaniolensis hispaniolensis meet without hybridizing !
Richard Klim
-------------------------
Tunisia
Richard
Many thanks for that very useful contribution, Menotti - excellent fieldwork by Luca Boscain!
Richard
KFC
Ken Tucker
Hear hear! I was too busy dashing about trying to find this lark and that wheatear to slow down and undertake anything like this. Well done - simple but interesting and informative primary research.
Richard Klim
-------------------------
Elgvin et al 2011
Elgvin, Hermansen, Fijarczyk†, Bonnet, Borge, Sæther, Voje & Sætre 2011. Hybrid speciation in sparrows II: a role for sex chromosomes? Mol Ecol: in press. [abstract]
Last edited:
Richard Klim
-------------------------
Hermansen et al 2011
Hermansen, Sæther, Elgvin, Borge, Hjelle & Sætre 2011. Hybrid speciation in sparrows I: phenotypic intermediacy, genetic admixture and barriers to gene flow. Mol Ecol: in press. [abstract]
Hermansen, Sæther, Elgvin, Borge, Hjelle & Sætre 2011. Hybrid speciation in sparrows I: phenotypic intermediacy, genetic admixture and barriers to gene flow. Mol Ecol: in press. [abstract]
[I'd wondered why yesterday's publication was titled 'Hybrid speciation in sparrows II'.]
Last edited:
Richard Klim
-------------------------
Hermansen et al 2011
Italian sparrow joins family as a new species.
PS. Listed as a proposed split by IOC:
www.worldbirdnames.org/updates-PS.html [updated 20 Sep 2011]
PPS. Accepted as a species by TiF:
www.jboyd.net/Taxo/changes.html [20 Sep 2011]
www.jboyd.net/Taxo/List29.html#passeridae
For completeness, the rather belated BBC Nature news item noted elsewhere by Jack Dawe and Kits:
Italian sparrow joins family as a new species.
PS. Listed as a proposed split by IOC:
www.worldbirdnames.org/updates-PS.html [updated 20 Sep 2011]
PPS. Accepted as a species by TiF:
www.jboyd.net/Taxo/changes.html [20 Sep 2011]
www.jboyd.net/Taxo/List29.html#passeridae
Last edited:
Richard Klim
-------------------------
Richard Klim
-------------------------
IOC World Bird List
www.worldbirdnames.org/updates/species-updates-3-3
Passer italiae accepted for v3.3 (Draft).
www.worldbirdnames.org/updates/species-updates-3-3
MJB
Well-known member
I suggest that the status of other disputed bird taxa eventually may be resolved likewise. I quote here from recent study on ducks (I hope Richard remembers the citation - I mislaid it!) which proposed a fundamental new model of speciation:
"We demonstrate that hybridisation has led to sustained exchange of genetic material between duck species on an evolutionary time scale without disintegrating species boundaries. Even though behavioural, genetic and ecological factors uphold species boundaries in ducks, we detect opposing forces allowing for viable interspecific hybrids, with long-term evolutionary implications. Based on the superspecies concept we here introduce the novel term “supra-population” to explain the persistence of single nucleotide polymorphisms identical by descent within the studied ducks despite their history as distinct species dating back millions of years." (My emphases - think of House Sparrow, Spanish Sparrow and Italian Sparrow in this rough context. Incidentally, I think I'm correct in saying that the original BWP had a number of paragraphs on apparent 'outlier' populations at oases of 'Italian-like' sparrows.) Acrocephalus baeticatus/avicenniae anyone? (Reed Warblers at Egyptian and Libyan oases)
I'm not at all claiming that this study's methodology will apply directly to other families and genera, rather that this kind of inclusive thinking and analysis will enable such 'fuzzy' problems to be tackled within a realistic biological context or framework.
Now, the challenge is for field guides and the like to present this approach in a straightforward manner for the bulk of birders...:eek!:
MJB
Last edited:
Richard Klim
-------------------------
colonelboris
Right way up again
Christmas armchair tick! I think this may be my first armchair tick, actually...
Similar threads
