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Which Binoculars to buy: Newbie Dilema (1 Viewer)

Hi, I am new to the forum and thank you in advance all for any help you may be able to give me.

I have been an avid photographer for most of my life and have always tried to achieve the best results with the best optics.

I recently purchased a Hawke Endurance ED 8x32 for my wife for her birthday. I bought it based on numerous reviews i had read. It got rave reviews, especially on the ED glass end of things and the wide field of view 388 feet field of view.
I now want to buy a pair of binoculars for myself.

My dilemma is that i found the field of view on the “Endurance” from my point of view, awful. I do wear glasses and with the eye relief of 18 I though that would be more than enough for me. However with the the eyepieces covers set correctly i.e. fully retracted I could only see around 70% of any image i looked at. Yes, if i move my eyes around the eyepieces I can see all of the image, but not 100 % at the same time.

Moving forward to last week, I was recently at a bird sanctuary in Ireland where i live, and I asked one of the workers there could he recommend a good pair of bins for birding. He happened to have a Vortex Diamondback 8x42 with him. I tried them for a short time and immediately noticed a huge difference. The field of view was fantastic. I did not have to move my eyes around the eyepieces and noticed a whole new world. The images of the ducks were very clear. I am not sure if they were clearer than the “Endurance” bins.

My questions are:

The field of view of the Diamondback 8x42 (Old model) is 420 and the eye relief is 18. Does the 420 FOV compared to the 388 FOV of the Hawke make that much of a difference that i experienced?

Could it be the 8x42 compared to the 8x32 be helping with the field of view or is that just a extra light thing?

The latest Diamond back has a 393 FOV and a 17 eye relief so not the same attributes as the old version.

What has caught my eye is the new Vortex Viper HD with an eye relief of 18 and a FOV of 409. Better optics and within my 600 euro budget.

I also have an option of a 2nd hand Meopta Meostar (non HD) 10x42 for 500 euro.

Another option within my budget is the Hawke Frontier ED-X which has similar specs to the Vipers

Any advice would be appreciated.
 
Hi Chuck,

Yes, i wear glasses. All that i have read says the 18mm eye of the relief of the Hawkes Endurance ED should be plenty for glasses wearers to see well through.
 
Hi Chuck,

Yes, i wear glasses. All that i have read says the 18mm eye of the relief of the Hawkes Endurance ED should be plenty for glasses wearers to see well through.

Sorry...I should have seen that in the first post! :smoke:

Are the eyecups screw all the way in/down on the Endurance when you tried them? It SOUNDS to me like the eyepieces are a little too close to you eye. With the eyecups all the way in/down, try turning them out, each one a little then try it.
 
Hi Chuck,

I have tried what you said. It does not really make any difference. I have even tried not wearing glasses and i still cannot see the full circle, also having extended them fully out and at the other settings.

I am beginning to wonder , perhaps, that I am expecting too much from the Hawkes. Perhaps coming from a photography background I just expect too much.
Can you see the full field of view when you are looking through your bins? I wish i had the Vortex Diamondback to test again.
 
Hi,

let me first answer your question, yes I can see the full field of view with all my bins - after all the one with the widest field of view only has 8.8 deg true or 65 or so deg apparent fov. I don't wear glasses though.

The effect you describe is well known when using ultra wide angle astro EPs in a telescope. Those have 80 or even 100 degrees of apparent field of view and you can't see the whole field without moving your eye - quite a bit with the 100 deg examples.

Joachim
 
Hi irishweather,

8x42 binoculars may have objectives with about 160mm focal length.
The eyepieces are then 20mm focal length (160/8).

8x32 binoculars may have objectives with about 120mm focal length.
The eyepieces are then 15mm focal length (120/8).

With similar eyepiece designs the 20mm eyepiece has more eye relief than the 15mm eyepiece, which means that wearing glasses a person is much more likely to see the whole field with the 20mm eyepiece.

So in general 8x42s are better for eye glass wearers than 8x32s, unless extra eye relief eyepieces are used, which usually means a smaller field.

The same principle applies to a 10x42 binocular, which would have 16mm focal length eyepieces, with 160mm focal length objectives.

EWA astro eyepices are much wider than modern binocular eyepieces. Even with 82 degree Naglers I have to let my eyes roam around to see the whole view. I don't wear glasses with optics.
The 100 degree eyepieces are worse for me. I don't like them, although a 90 degree eyepiece is O.K.

My Minolta Standard MK Porroprism binoculars have a simple apparent field of view of 76 to 78 degrees. Real AFOV maybe 72 degrees? Nowadays there are almost no such binoculars made, which is a shame.

I find most modern binoculars have narrow fields of view, as most are designed for eye glass wearers.
 
Hi Joachim & Binatro,

Thanks for your advice it is much appreciated.

I think I am beginning to understand the physics.
That would explain why I found the 8x42 much better from a wider field point of view than the 8x32.

If you can advise if i would see a significant difference between the Razorbacks and the latest version of the Viper HD that would be great.
 
I like the Crossfire 10x42s a lot for the money. I got my mom a pair of Raptors in 8.5x32 and they're certainly serviceable for the price point, but if you want something with a good FOV and lowlight performance, I'd steer clear of most Vortex under ~$199. As with most things in life, you get what you pay for....

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
 
Thanks Bataleon for your advice.

Just an update, I have been to my local camera shop and have had a look at the Hawke Saphire 8 x 42 and Hawke sapphire 8x43. From an image point of view both seems quite similar. The 8 x 43 was heavier and longer so if I was going with one I would probably go with the 8 x 42. I also had a look of the Frontier-X 8 x 42. I think the Image quality of the Saphire was a little better also the feel of the Saphire in the hand was nicer.

There was a noticeable difference in quality in both Saphires and Frontier-X 8 x 42 compared to my wife's Endurance 8 x 30 ed. The field of view was better and the eye reliev and Fov seems to be much better as well. I have to say that the more expensive Hawkes improves the image quality greatly compared to the 8 x 32 ed.

My question now is, how would the sapphires compare to the Vortex Viper HD 8x42? Has anyone been able to compare the hawke Saphires and the Vortex vipers. Unfortunately in Ireland I cannot find a retailer that sells Vortex Vipers. I could buy blindly on the Internet but do not want to make a mistake. I did have an opportunity lately to have a look at a friends 8 x 42 diamondback, old version, was really impressed with the field of view and the handling of the binoculars.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
IW,

Was that the Sapphire 8x42 single hinge or the 8x43 open hinge you tried? I personally preferred the ergonomics of the more compact single hinge. It's quite a while since I did the comparison but my feeling was that the two were optically very close. Perhaps the open hinge has a slightly flatter view, with a little more magnification distortion, but I think most would be hard pushed to see the difference. Both are a lot better than the Frontier ED 8x32. Unfortunately I've not seen the new ED X yet.

The Viper HD is quite a different offering, or at least was. Production has moved from Japan to China relatively recently and I've not seen it since. I've not followed the move closely so don't know if there were any changes at the time. It's a tad smaller and lighter than the Sapphire single hinge but more obviously so than the open hinge. It was better engineered, but I don't know if that is still the case. There was a suggestion that the parts are still Japanese, with just the assembly in China. The field is not as flat or as wide as the Sapphires, but that's fine in my book. I've not held them both in my hands at the same time, but I thought there was subtle difference in colour balance and sharpness, which for me, favoured the Hawkes, but would make no practical difference for most.

Perhaps one thing to consider is the Sapphires are currently being phased out. Should it have a significant failure it will get replaced by an ED-X. I believe the Viper would still be repaired or replaced with original parts for a long time to come. For what's worth, I thought the Viper HD was obviously better than the Diamondback last time I looked, but that may have changed.

I hope to make it to the UK birdfair next month and I may know more then, if you can wait that long. If you fancy a hop across the water it's well worth a visit.

David

P.S. Have a look at the Opticrons if you can. Conns Cameras is listed as a stockist.
 
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Hi David,

Thanks for your opinions, much appreciated.

The 8x42 was the single hinge and the 8x43 was the open double hinge. I must admit that the feel of the single hinge was much better and i did not particularly like the extra length of the 8x43. So in my view a win for the 8x42.
The Frontier 8x42 ED-X optically seemed quit similar to the Sapphires but the feel was much more camera body like than the rugged feel of the Sapphire.

So, on balance i think I would go with the Sapphire 8x42.
I still niggle after the new Viper HD.

The specs of the latest version are as follows:

Magnification 8 x
Objective Lens Diameter 42 mm
Eye Relief 18 mm
Exit Pupil 5.25 mm
Linear Field of View 409 feet/1000 yards
Angular Field of View 7.8 degrees
Close Focus 6.5 feet
Interpupillary Distance 56-75 mm
Height 5.6 inches
Width 4.9 inches
Weight 24.5 ounces

The eye relief is good and the field of view is much improved compared to the older version 409 feet compared to 347 feet per 100 yards.

If you get a chance to have a look at this one at the bird fair next month I would love to hear your views. Unfortunately i will not be able to visit myself. I am not in an big rush to purchase so i prefer wait and make just one purchase and get it right 1st time.

I did not have much time to look at the the Diamondbacks but as the FOV and eye relief were so much better than the 8x32 ed that i was really taken by them. I imagine optically i would have found fault eventually but they did show me what a great field of view could be had from a different pair of binoculars.

I will definable have a look at the Opticians in Conns Cameras in Dublin and see how i get on with them.
 
I still niggle after the new Viper HD.
I did not have much time to look at the the Diamondbacks but as the FOV and eye relief were so much better than the 8x32 ed that i was really taken by them. I imagine optically i would have found fault eventually but they did show me what a great field of view could be had from a different pair of binoculars.
I have to say that I've tried (and own) both the old and new (2016) Diamondback 8x42s. I don't like either. I mean really don't like. I could give you a list of binoculars which are better, for less money.

But that's not to say the Vipers are bad. I've not looked through those, and the "select a model from a catalog, then give them a warranty" model I (rather cynically) assign to Vortex doesn't mean they're likely to be so. I'd just, personally, recommend against the Diamondback 8x42 models because my personal experience tells me they're "wrong".

(Note that I do like, a bit, the equivalent 2016 8x32 Diamondbacks: they're "off" in a different way but they have their uses and to my mind are rather better than their 8x42 "cousins" - for which I can find no excuse.)

...Mike
 
I have to say that I've tried (and own) both the old and new (2016) Diamondback 8x42s. I don't like either. I mean really don't like. I could give you a list of binoculars which are better, for less money.

But that's not to say the Vipers are bad. I've not looked through those, and the "select a model from a catalog, then give them a warranty" model I (rather cynically) assign to Vortex doesn't mean they're likely to be so. I'd just, personally, recommend against the Diamondback 8x42 models because my personal experience tells me they're "wrong".

(Note that I do like, a bit, the equivalent 2016 8x32 Diamondbacks: they're "off" in a different way but they have their uses and to my mind are rather better than their 8x42 "cousins" - for which I can find no excuse.)

...Mike

Thanks for your views Mike.

I suppose the reality is that try and buy 1st is probably the best advice i can give myself.

I bought the Hawke 8x32 endurance ed for my wife based on the glowing reports. Thankfully she like them a lot but if i had bought them for myself I would have been disappointed. They just don't suit my eyes although they feel well in the hand.
The Sapphires were a huge improvement and ultimately if i don't try another brand will probably go for these.

I will wait for Daves feedback on the new Vipers if he gets a chance to try them at the UK bird fair.
 
Hi Guys,

Just to give you an update on my binocular purchase.

I saw a Hawke Sapphire ED 8x42 for sale on Ebay last week.
They were new and unused. I got them for £280 and was delighted with this price.

I received them a few days ago and to say that i am delighted with these binoculars is an understatement.

I can only compare them to my wife’s Hawke Endurance ED 8x32.

The image is brighter, clearer and sharper. The “dept of field” is much improved. Almost, equally more improved, the view is immersive. I can see the whole view through the eyepiece. This i know is partly down to the larg 426ft FOV.

I do realise that they are double the price of the 8x32 but i have a couple of questions.

I am puzzled, that although the eye relief is 18mm on both, the view is very different. I can only see around 80% of the “circle” on the 8x32. I can see the whole “circle” and the view seems magnified, by a large amount on the 8x42. This seems to create this “immersive” feeling

I have asked my wife how she sees her view from both of the binoculars .
She prefers the view from the 8x32. She does not wear glasses but she says that she gets blackout from my 8x42 (when fully screwed out) and that she can see her eyelashes flashing in the 8x42 when she looks through them.

Could it be that the 8x42 is like the Zeiss 8x42 HD whereby that not spectacle wearers, have have an issue with the eye relief?

Just curious and any comments would be greatly appreciated.
 
IW,

Congratulations on the new purchase.

You don't need me to tell you the Sapphire ED is a much better binocular than the Endurance ED, but sometimes the ergonomics are more important. I'm not sure I've tried either without glasses, but as you've found out the eye relief value is often of little help in predicting how it's going to work for an individual. If measured correctly, it only tells you the optimum lens to eye distance. It doesn't allow for how much the lens is recessed below the eyecup, or when fully extended it will be sufficient to prevent blackouts, and that's without considering the individual's differences differences in IPD and facial features. It would be unusual for any binocular to have the adjustment range to suit everyone. Wide FoV binoculars often have big eye lenses and large diameter eyecups, and will usually rest against the eyebrow rather than within the eye socket, but not for everyone of course. Should I need to compare binoculars without glasses I seem to quickly develop a deep frown, that seems to last most of the day. It's not always an indication of disapproval. ;)

David
 
Typo,

Thanks for your insight in eye relief on binoculars.

I think i have solved the mystery (well you have done the solving for me), regarding the difference in eye relief between the 2 binoculars.
As you state "It doesn't allow for how much the lens is recessed below the eyecup".
I have had a closer look at the recess difference on both and indeed the recess on the endurance is indeed a good deal greater, perhaps 2mm. This would explain the actual eye relief difference in using both with glasses. The lens on the Sapphire is almost level with the eyecup.

You are also correct regarding ergonomics probably being the most important part of choosing a pair of binoculars. The Sapphire is just perfect for me, indeed sometimes i just pick them up just to hold them in my hands. I find them a thing of beauty, very sad, LOL.

I follow your posts on other threads and your knowledge is indeed very valuable. Thank you again and to others who responded to my questions, thank you too.

John
 
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