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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Tuesday 21st May 2019, 06:04   #1626
Borjam
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
What frequency will vaporize silverfish ?!
I swear those things will outlive time itself !
10 GHz no

60 GHz no

2.4 GHz no

5.8 GHz no

HF (7, 10, 14, 18, 21 MHz) no.

Feel free to try others
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Old Tuesday 21st May 2019, 14:27   #1627
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So, more or less birds?

I got a very pleasant surprise yesterday. I went for a walk by the beach and there was something unusual. The tide had brought some algae that were rotting (so the odor was rather strong) and surprisingly the beach had not been "cleaned". It is usually very clean.

And I saw something I hadn't seen there in ages. It's an urban beach. About 20 plovers and sandpipers of different species.

Are we cleaning our beaches compulsively? What's the effect of all that thorough cleaning on the intertidal meiofauna? How does it affect waders?
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Old Tuesday 21st May 2019, 16:31   #1628
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So, more or less birds?
Where I live, more.

Many more House martins.
Many more House sparrows.
Many more Common buzzards.
Many more Goldfinches.
A few more Jackdaws, Carrion crows, Blackbirds, Robins, Blue tits, Wood pigeons.
About the same Great spotted woodpecker, Song thrush, Collared Dove.
Fewer Chaffinch, Greenfinch, Kestrel.
A lot fewer Dodos.

Peter
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Old Tuesday 21st May 2019, 17:31   #1629
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Where I live, more.

A lot fewer Dodos.

Peter
Lot more dodos round me, dog owners never clear them up!

John
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Old Wednesday 22nd May 2019, 13:47   #1630
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But it doesn't take very much to force birds to change their habits when survival is at stake .
take blue tits breaking into milk bottles in the UK. All came about during the big freeze of 1962/63 (the cream expanded in frozen bottles pushing the cap off and provided a handy source of food. the tits soon learned that they could peck through the foil caps and nick the cream inside on unfrozen bottles) and became a national phenomenon within a very short space of time such that it became the iconic image of the species. such behavioural changes of course can be reversed in similarly short timescales. This no longer happens as the behavior has been unlearnt due to the decline in doorstep milk deliveries.

In terms of migration patterns this will vary from year to year mainly due to changes in weather and many other factors and cannot be put down to EMR effects in isolation (unless of course it fits your pet theory).
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Old Thursday 23rd May 2019, 12:34   #1631
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@ Borjam You are really fixated on radar. Radar shares certain characteristics with, but is not the same as, mobile phone radiation. Read the Panagopoulos paper.

@ everyone else I don't have the link to that study. Borjam, I know that study thinks that 4G, Wi-Fi etc is not affecting insects but 5G will; Panagopoulos would disagree strongly, given his research on fruit flies. He would say that any pulsed EMR (regardless of G) is the problem; 5G may well also heat insect antennae, due to the shortness of the wavelength. And yes, there are other problems affecting insects as well, no one ever said there weren't, though I do not think pesticides or light pollution are the issue in my area because no one has used any pesticides for a long time, and there aren't many lights. Borjam, I don't think that the issue is quite so simple as "Install 5G to get rid of insect pests" though at the end of the day, it might be (not much 5G installed yet)--provided you also want to get rid of pollinators at the same time.

@ Chosun. Try good old-fashioned mothballs on camphor tablets to get rid of silverfish; lavender sachets work pretty well too.

@ Kevin Since where I live is deeply rural, I can't say I've observed changes such as you describe, though I have heard of birds adapting to sing at night in cities. And different times of day will affect what you see and hear--but if you go at more or less the same time of day to the same place, you do form an overall picture over time.
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Old Thursday 23rd May 2019, 13:57   #1632
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@ Borjam You are really fixated on radar. Radar shares certain characteristics with, but is not the same as, mobile phone radiation. Read the Panagopoulos paper.
I am fixated on radar because the frequencies it uses are several times higher than WiFi, mobile phones, etc, and the transmission powers are enormous.

Quote:
@ everyone else I don't have the link to that study. Borjam, I know that study thinks that 4G, Wi-Fi etc is not affecting insects but 5G will; Panagopoulos would disagree strongly, given his research on fruit flies. He would say that any pulsed EMR (regardless of G) is the problem;
Now I don't follow. Panagopoulos says that radar is not a problem. But he says that any pulsed EMR is harmful. Most radars, except maybe for some specialized weapon control systems are pulsed. (Some Doppler radars).

Quote:
Borjam, I don't think that the issue is quite so simple as "Install 5G to get rid of insect pests" though at the end of the day, it might be (not much 5G installed yet)--provided you also want to get rid of pollinators at the same time.
I was being sarcastic of course :)

For silverfish I've found out that the best kryptonite is low moisture. A dehumidifier can make your house a really unpleasant place for them. My population crashed when I dismantled the aquarium.

Last edited by Borjam : Thursday 23rd May 2019 at 14:06.
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Old Thursday 23rd May 2019, 14:27   #1633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
What frequency will vaporize silverfish ?!
I swear those things will outlive time itself !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
.. Try good old-fashioned mothballs on camphor tablets to get rid of silverfish; lavender sachets work pretty well too ..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borjam View Post
.. For silverfish I've found out that the best kryptonite is low moisture. A dehumidifier can make your house a really unpleasant place for them. My population crashed when I dismantled the aquarium.
The ones at my place have inhaled that much lavender that they now get around in old VW Kombi's, wearing tie dye, flared, and cheesecloth clothing, holding hands and chanting kumbaya while dreamy Indian Sitar music plays in the background !

They make Cockroaches seem like they have the lifespan of Butterflies, and I swear if they were human sized they'd move faster than the FLASH !




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Old Thursday 23rd May 2019, 19:35   #1634
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5G, an interesting (possible) negative side effect—

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weath...try-denies-it/
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Old Friday 24th May 2019, 06:34   #1635
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5G, an interesting (possible) negative side effect—

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weath...try-denies-it/
Interesting. They could move the 5G millimetre band a bit more in order to limit potential interference.

Anyway more like an issue with 5G itself it's a problem with one of the frequency bands proposed.
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Old Friday 24th May 2019, 11:20   #1636
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First 60 of the SpaceX Starlink satellites went up yesterday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48289204
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Old Friday 24th May 2019, 11:45   #1637
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Now that I recall, more than 30 years ago I was a guest at one of those stupid "debate" TV programs. There were several "witches" (astrologists, etc) and a couple of skeptics. Guess the side I was on :)

So, I don't remember the details but one of the witches, at some point, claimed that microwave ovens had some magical properties. In order to support her claims she said, straight faced and all, that she once Entered (capitalization because it seemed to be a Big Thing for her) a factory of microwave ovens and she even had to wear a dosimeter.
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Old Friday 24th May 2019, 13:38   #1638
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Guess the side I was on :)
Spanish chapter of Witxhes United? :)
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Old Saturday 25th May 2019, 02:45   #1639
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Ah, so it’s plastics that’s the culprit—

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...stics-research
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Old Saturday 25th May 2019, 11:13   #1640
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Ah, so it’s plastics that’s the culprit—

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...stics-research
It certainly is a research proven all pervading problem that affects all locations via air, soil, and water, and indeed the entire Web of Life.

I was quite shocked to see that microplastics and their growing toxic load cross the gut barrier into the bloodstream, and thence into internal organs such as the liver. I just can't look at my "eco"-fleeces, and technical mountain gear with quite the same degree of innocence or fondness anymore.

See the thread on it here: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=374057
The ABC is quite good for factual information, so you should be able to track down the source research featured on the "Catalyst" program.

One of the great hopes for regenerating the landscape is the creation of soil through organic matter - resulting from added biosolids undergoing the pasture cropping and natural sequence farming transformation process. In the light of this contamination by pervasive microplastics though, even this seems problematic ..... which is rather depressing





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Old Monday 27th May 2019, 10:06   #1641
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@ Chosun Wouldn't disagree about the deleterious effects of plastics--microplastics are a total abomination and I cannot work out how they were ever allowed to produce them in the first place. Just to be clear on this, I am not, and never have, argued that there aren't a great many other things harming nature besides EMR--nature is being assaulted on a great many fronts. But EMR, especially when it comes to the satellites and 5G, is an immediate problem that has to be dealt with NOW, because if we get this one wrong there is no going back. Which is why I am asking you to sign the 5G space appeal. If you ever believed in the precautionary principle this is the time to apply it. There may not be, in your eyes, 100% proof that EMR is dangerous, but the precautionary principle doesn't ask for 100% proof, and by the time you get it, it will be too late. I find it hard to understand why someone who obviously cares about nature won't side with the precautionary principle on this issue, especially when the risk is so enormous.

@ Borjam I am not saying that radar isn't dangerous--it most certainly is. I was talking to a man the other day, whose father was station commander at Bordsey (Bordsea?) in the UK in the early 1960's. That was a big radar station, fighter interception, and the man says his father told him that radar was known to cause depression and psychological problems--suicides among personnel working at radar installations were way above the norm, and this was well known at the time; personnel working at these stations had to have yearly psychiatric evaluations. I found this interesting especially in light of the fact that EMR, and especially Wi-Fi, which uses the same frequency as radar, is strongly linked with depression, and suicides among young peope especially are rising.

Then there is Vokrodt's work on radar and trees, which I presented earlier on in this thread. And the Hensiger-Wilke paper, which says that the combination of radar and mobile telephony EMR is an especially bad combination. So no, radar isn't safe at all. But it is not as ubiquitous as mobile telephony EMR, which Panagopoulos says is especially dangerous because of the irregular and totally unpredictable nature of the pulsations, which in turn means that species cannot adapt. If you look at the Martin Blank paper on heat shock proteins, I think this translates into each pulse generating heat shock proteins, leading to a variety of ill effects.

Radar is undoubtedly more powerful than mobile telephony EMR, and very damaging, but the many, many papers I have posted on this forum show that it is not necessary for mobile telephony EMR to be strong/powerful in order to create biological effects. So if you are continuing to rely on the argument that mobile telephony/wireless EMR is not a powerful enough signal to be damaging to living organisms, you are wrong.

@ Peter We live in very different environments, yet chaffinches, greenfinches, goldfinches and kestrels are all way down here as well. Care to hazard a guess as to what might be causing these species to decline in both places if you don't think that EMR is responsible? Because my guess is, EMR is the one thing we definitely have in common.
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Old Monday 27th May 2019, 17:17   #1642
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Where I live, more.

Many more House martins.
Many more House sparrows.
Many more Common buzzards.
Many more Goldfinches.
A few more Jackdaws, Carrion crows, Blackbirds, Robins, Blue tits, Wood pigeons.
About the same Great spotted woodpecker, Song thrush, Collared Dove.
Fewer Chaffinch, Greenfinch, Kestrel.
A lot fewer Dodos.

Peter
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@ Peter We live in very different environments, yet chaffinches, greenfinches, goldfinches and kestrels are all way down here as well. Care to hazard a guess as to what might be causing these species to decline in both places if you don't think that EMR is responsible? Because my guess is, EMR is the one thing we definitely have in common.
@ PH. We know from your previous assertions that corvids and starlings are exempt from the effects of EMR. You would say the same now, would you, about House martins, House sparrows, Common buzzards, Goldfinches, Blackbirds, Robins, Blue tits, Wood pigeons, Great spotted woodpecker, Song thrush and Collared Dove?
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Old Wednesday 29th May 2019, 07:41   #1643
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@ Chosun Wouldn't disagree about the deleterious effects of plastics--microplastics are a total abomination and I cannot work out how they were ever allowed to produce them in the first place. Just to be clear on this, I am not, and never have, argued that there aren't a great many other things harming nature besides EMR--nature is being assaulted on a great many fronts. But EMR, especially when it comes to the satellites and 5G, is an immediate problem that has to be dealt with NOW, because if we get this one wrong there is no going back. Which is why I am asking you to sign the 5G space appeal. If you ever believed in the precautionary principle this is the time to apply it. There may not be, in your eyes, 100% proof that EMR is dangerous, but the precautionary principle doesn't ask for 100% proof, and by the time you get it, it will be too late. I find it hard to understand why someone who obviously cares about nature won't side with the precautionary principle on this issue, especially when the risk is so enormous.

@ Borjam I am not saying that radar isn't dangerous--it most certainly is. I was talking to a man the other day, whose father was station commander at Bordsey (Bordsea?) in the UK in the early 1960's. That was a big radar station, fighter interception, and the man says his father told him that radar was known to cause depression and psychological problems--suicides among personnel working at radar installations were way above the norm, and this was well known at the time; personnel working at these stations had to have yearly psychiatric evaluations. I found this interesting especially in light of the fact that EMR, and especially Wi-Fi, which uses the same frequency as radar, is strongly linked with depression, and suicides among young peope especially are rising.

Then there is Vokrodt's work on radar and trees, which I presented earlier on in this thread. And the Hensiger-Wilke paper, which says that the combination of radar and mobile telephony EMR is an especially bad combination. So no, radar isn't safe at all. But it is not as ubiquitous as mobile telephony EMR, which Panagopoulos says is especially dangerous because of the irregular and totally unpredictable nature of the pulsations, which in turn means that species cannot adapt. If you look at the Martin Blank paper on heat shock proteins, I think this translates into each pulse generating heat shock proteins, leading to a variety of ill effects.

Radar is undoubtedly more powerful than mobile telephony EMR, and very damaging, but the many, many papers I have posted on this forum show that it is not necessary for mobile telephony EMR to be strong/powerful in order to create biological effects. So if you are continuing to rely on the argument that mobile telephony/wireless EMR is not a powerful enough signal to be damaging to living organisms, you are wrong.

@ Peter We live in very different environments, yet chaffinches, greenfinches, goldfinches and kestrels are all way down here as well. Care to hazard a guess as to what might be causing these species to decline in both places if you don't think that EMR is responsible? Because my guess is, EMR is the one thing we definitely have in common.
Hi Diana,

I have been ridiculously busy (and in even more ridiculous pain) and have not had a chance to digest in depth the last lot of papers you and Ed re-posted - the look I did have told me this is not my area and I know I will need big chunks of time to delve into them from first principles. I will have to devote at least the next 12 months to conjuring up some healing lest I join those satellites in the sky ! :)

I haven't signed the 5G moratorium petition because it just wasn't professionally presented - it drifted into repetition, confusion over proven /unknown effects, and started to sound like a left wing spiel. In general I agree with the precautionary principle.

There are too many inconsistencies already in your observations of different sized birds - this is why I urged some raw bird observations and primary relational data. You should avail yourself of the talented people here in the design of such research data collection ..... we can see from the "binocular format poll" on another thread that the data can be systemically corrupted very quickly and very inadvertently if great skill and professional experience is not applied. I would love to read such formal observations, and I'm sure others here would too :)

This is not my area either, but I have enough experience with accepted methods of survey (used in EIS, EPBC Act challenges, gazetting of Threatened Species, etc) to know that there are many problems with those too. I came to these insights through being involved in mining and other large scale infrastructure projects as well as almost daily observation on my own conservation patch, formal surveys there and the discrepancies in all that data. This thread has been going for years now - that is a lot of useful data that could have been collected - it's not too late to start now.

Without further delving into the mathematics (it took me 3 goes to pass the advanced subject 'Dynamics of Mechanical Systems' with a luxurious 56 - that put me in the top 10% and vast swathes of the degree flunked out permanently on that subject), I have a gut feel that the 'pulsed' signal that you have mentioned numerous times would be less likely to set up a harmful harmonic resonance by nature of its messiness. Still, expert opinion and testing on that is required. It seems strange to me that any proofs are not widely duplicated ....?

I am not at all convinced of the business case for space 5G given the supposed fragility of the signal, but it seems it is rocketing ahead (literally) already. Users could only hope it works better than our NBN system which never reaches advertised speeds.

With 60 satellites launched already, and 1000's more to follow, it seems the pollution of our collective 'visual ammenity' is another great concern:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...rn-astronomers




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Old Thursday 30th May 2019, 05:16   #1644
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Hi Ed - got your PM, but you need to make room in your Inbox :)


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Old Thursday 30th May 2019, 05:45   #1645
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Chosun,
There should be room now.
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Old Friday 31st May 2019, 19:06   #1646
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I wonder where EMR fits into all this?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/o...core-ios-share
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Old Saturday 1st June 2019, 10:45   #1647
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@ fugl, Chosun My observations are not inconsistent, though the conclusions I have come to (and these are not set in stone, but merely guesses, an attempt to make sense of what is happening) may be. For instance, I know I said that crows, jays and starlings did not seem to be as affected by EMR, and I posited that perhaps the size of different species had something to do with how much EMR affects them. However, that was a while ago, and I for one have read a lot more studies since then, and also things have changed on the ground. For instance, since local telecoms targeted the south coast with 4G/LTE, the starlings have all disappeared, and I haven't seen a single one for at least a year. There are ever fewer birds on the south coast these days.

For the record, fugl, I don't think any bird--or any creature--is unaffected by EMR--it will get everything in the end, one way or another. Some species (eg corvids) seem less affected, and I have tried to account for this but I am only guessing based on the studies I have read. I can't account for why jays and crows seem less affected, but some species, such as great tits, which breed in holes in tree trunks, and bee eaters, which breed in underground burrows, are clearly doing better than other species that breed in more exposed locations. And this makes sense in terms of some of the studies, because the insect study on Lesvos showed that insects that breed underground are less affected by cell tower radiation than those that breed above ground, while a study of quail eggs exposed to EMR showed that 10% of the eggs had suffered DNA damage. And if this sort of thing happens over and over, species definitely will decline. So I am guessing that species that nest in more protected areas--holes in trees, dense forest, dense brush, etc. will be less affected than species that breed in more exposed locations. And this does seem to be borne out by what I am observing.

Species that breed in towns are, here at least, in real trouble. Since 2014, when we got 4G and public Wi-Fi in Samos town, the sparrows, martins, swallows and ring-neck doves have diminished hugely or disappeared altogether, and the same is true, to a greater or lesser degree, in many of the villages. But their nests are all highly exposed to EMR, and in the past 5 years--that's five generations of exposure--I don't think it's surprising because I expect two things are happening: one is that the chicks are DNA-damaged, even if they hatch, and secondly. the breeding adults have very likely become sterile from constant exposure to EMR over this period. If you look at the Xenos and Magras study of mice, for instance, it took about 5 months (five breeding periods) for the dams to become irreversibly sterile. Add sterile adults to sterile/damaged chicks, and you will see massive declines leading to extinction--and of course it much worse for birds (or any creature) that is closer to the source of EMR, or more directly exposed.

Where I live, out of town and away from the main beams of the cell towers (though of course there is cell tower radiation, just less) some birds are doing well and some badly. Blackbirds, great tits, owls, bee-eaters, sardinian warblers, orphean warblers, wood pigeons, ring-neck doves, wrens and sparrows are okay so far, as are jay and crows, song thrushes diminishing. All the raptors are in trouble--far fewer of all species and the short-toed eagle, which used to breed on the mountain with the cell towers, is gone. We still get plenty of martins, swallows, common and alpine swifts, though not as many as we used to get. Chaffinches, zero, likewise black-caps, likewise partridges and chukars.

Finches and buntings seem to be in especial trouble from EMR. I have said that chaffinches have all but disappeared here, and the same is true for the serins, greenfinches and goldfinches that were all quite common on the south coast. These birds were all markedly fewer on our last trip to northern Greece, and also on our last trip to western Greece in 2015. It was especially noticeable in the Amvrakikos lagoon, where there is a long dike that used to have flocks of linnets, chaffinches, many greenfinches, serins, cyril buntings, etc. and they were all gone--though at the time we had no idea what could have happened to them. But there is a lot of EMR in the Amvrakikos, which is between two large towns, Arta and Preveza. Wagtails (all kinds) are also down and have diminished very quickly on the south coast of Samos, along with stonechats and reed buntings. It's not a totally exhaustive list but it gives some idea. And I cannot find any reason other than EMR to explain why these birds, so numerous not long ago, should have declined so drastically. How exactly the EMR is affecting them and causing them to decline I don't know; I can only make educated guesses based on what I do know. The same mechanisms that affect laboratory animals will affect birds and everything else.

@ Chosun I don't see what harmonics has to do with the issue of whether irregular pulses cause harm. Panagopoulos's point is adaptability. If the pulses cannot be predicted, the organism cannot adapt to them--and this is what makes wireless communication EMR so uniquely dangerous.

I still take issue with you on the 5G Space Appeal. You sound as if you are saying you would sign an appeal that was, in your opinion, better written--but there isn't one, this is it. Isn't the principle the main issue here? Or do you want all those satellites to go up, go live, and then wait to see what happens?

I definitely don't want to wait and see what happens. I think there is sufficient indication that EMR is harmful to all living creatures NOT to want to take the risk that 5G will wipe out all the insects and by extension everything else. I know you aren't satisfied with the science; I even agree with you; a lot more work could and should be done. But the point is, with something that's going to be applied globally, we cannot afford to get it wrong. The technology is racing so far ahead of the science that there is no way proper research can be done in time. Take the 10-year NTP study. They spent 10 years studying 3G, and now we are on the cusp of 5G. Does this make sense? The science should be done first, or the technology shouldn't be allowed.

The fact is, like it or not, that 5G Space Appeal is the only petition that has garnered global support, and about the only thing ordinary people can do to try to stop the total madness of irradiating the entire planet. It's too late for anything else. Maybe there is some experiment currently ongoing that will get published befor the satellites go live, but science tends to examine the world with a pair of tweezers and it takes time to put all the pieces of the puzzle together. And time is what we haven't got.
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Old Sunday 2nd June 2019, 05:14   #1648
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...but science tends to examine the world with a pair of tweezers and it takes time to put all the pieces of the puzzle together.
Well spoken.

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Old Sunday 2nd June 2019, 07:39   #1649
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. . .For the record, fugl, I don't think any bird--or any creature--is unaffected by EMR--it will get everything in the end, one way or another. . ..
Everything, all life on earth will be destroyed by EMR “in the end, one way or another”? Do you have any idea how loony this sounds given the evidence cited by you and your disciple(s) so far?

Your mind about devil EMR has clearly been unalterably made-up from the start, with your constant appeals to the “precautionary principle” being nothing more than a cynical ploy to reel in the pathetic “oh, dear me, dare I eat a peach” brigade.

I recently noticed that the wifi connection in my new home (Portland, Oregon) is sometimes labeled “5g”. You suggested in a previous post that I’ve already been cognitively impaired by exposure to the existing forms of EMR; if you’re right, 5g should finish me off completely in short order (I currently have up to 5 wifi-connected devices on or near my person 24/7). So, watch this space. . ..
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Old Monday 3rd June 2019, 10:43   #1650
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@ fugl You may indeed be cognitively impaired. And have you checked your sperm count lately?

@ all A couple of interesting articles, one by Professor Olle Johannson, and one by Dr. Darius Leszczinski, who makes some interesting points about ICNIRP (who set the standards on how much EMR is "safe"). Here are the links:

by Olle Johansson, "To bee or not to bee, that is the 5 'G' question"
https://newsvoice.se/2019/05/5g-ques...lle-johansson/

5G: Leszczynski: ‘Brief Opinion on 5G and Health’
https://betweenrockandhardplace.word...5g-and-health/
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