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AGW and rising sea levels

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Old Thursday 21st March 2019, 02:45   #601
Chosun Juan
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The Heartland Institute (https://www.heartland.org/news-opini...-committee)—an excerpt.

“These faulty to even fraudulent global warming and climate change claims are the driving force behind the Green New Deal’s plans to terminate fossil fuel use, ban cattle raising, and eliminate cars and airplanes; force us to rely on wind and solar power that would blanket millions of acres with turbines and panels; and replace our free enterprise system with socialist policies that would take money from you – and give it to someone else”.
Re: the link ....... Page Not Found ??

Re: my bold highlight. While I am a big supporter of renewable energy, the use of good arable land (itself likely former grassy woodland, floodplains etc, and in dire need of rewilding establishment back to original system functioning) is something that does not sit comfortably at all with me ....



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Old Thursday 21st March 2019, 05:26   #602
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The Heartland Institute (https://www.heartland.org/news-opini...totalitarians)—excerpts from another article.

For years, you Democrats, environmentalists, Deep State bureaucrats, government-grant-dependent scientists, news and social media have colluded to censor and silence manmade climate chaos skeptics, and stifle any debate.
...............
For years, you have loudly and incessantly asserted that the United States and world must end fossil fuel use, or we are “doomed.” Now you’re demanding that the United States completely upend its energy production, transportation and manufacturing sectors, housing and office buildings, and entire economy. You want the federal government to control and limit our lives, choices and living standards – and redistribute our wealth, even to those “unwilling to work,” according to confiscatory socialist principles.
..............
Your Climate Industrial Complex is a $2-trillion-per-year global behemoth. Your Green New Deal would cost this nation up to $93 trillion by 2030 – sticking every US family with a $65,000 annual bill.
...............
Your radical agenda and actions are un-American, totalitarian, anti-science, and contrary to our most fundamental principles. . .”.


I bow my head in shame. . ..
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Old Thursday 21st March 2019, 09:12   #603
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I think there is corruption everywhere.
Might want to look into William Happer then.
And most of the undersigned organisations while you're at it.

The point of corruption is to gain wealth and/or power, so please explain to me how climate scientists benefit from, as you accuse, bending the truth? Tens of thousands of postdocs working their socks of on $40K a year hopping from 1 year contract to the next. I guess they're in it to secure their next 12 months of employment? Oh no sorry they're actually part of a global conspiracy to do...what exactly?

The science is settled, the tide of opinion has already turned. Despite the rearguard actions fought by the failed, selfish generation currently in power, I remain hopeful for a cleaner, greener future.
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Old Thursday 21st March 2019, 15:39   #604
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...
The point of corruption is to gain wealth and/or power, so please explain to me how climate scientists benefit from, as you accuse, bending the truth? ....
The science is settled, the tide of opinion has already turned. Despite the rearguard actions fought by the failed, selfish generation currently in power, I remain hopeful for a cleaner, greener future.
I have a hard time even considering that as a legitimate question. The 'carbon credits' scam would likely create the largest transfer of wealth in human history. Not to mention the control governments would have over their constituents.
Our own EPA has/had the potential of being an important part of American environmental oversight, instead it became completely out of control--a Brownshirt organization ruining the lives of families around the country.

And the science may be 'settled' in your world, but as my link indicates there are many people and scientists who dissent with that thinking, this in spite of a media machine that has hammered that narrative for decades.

....$40K/year postdoc scientists....chuckle. Yeah right.
They tow the AGW line or get cast out of peer-review heaven.
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Old Thursday 21st March 2019, 16:21   #605
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I have a hard time even considering that as a legitimate question. The 'carbon credits' scam would likely create the largest transfer of wealth in human history. Not to mention the control governments would have over their constituents.
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....$40K/year postdoc scientists....chuckle. Yeah right.
They tow the AGW line or get cast out of peer-review heaven.
And climate scientists benefit from this how? You honestly think they get rich off this? That would be the most deluded thing I've read on this forum - barring Purple Heron of course, she's a true paragon of irrationality.


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And the science may be 'settled' in your world, but as my link indicates there are many people and scientists who dissent with that thinking, this in spite of a media machine that has hammered that narrative for decades.
You mean my world of actual scientists and experts in their field, rather than a bunch of quacks, liars and unicorn-chasers? Quite comfortable in that elitist company thanks very much. And you know why? Because we actually put the effort in to finding out all this stuff for you. Not for a paycheck, not for 10 seconds of fame, but because we're geeks that can't stand not knowing how things work.
It's very simple, the undersigned of that letter are either clueless or disingenuous. Given the abundance of evidence there is no longer any excuse of the former, and still you think they deserve respect for their bad science, manipulation of data, and purposeful misleading of the general public? Future generations will not judge their selfish actions kindly.
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Old Thursday 21st March 2019, 16:31   #606
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In happier news: https://www.euractiv.com/section/cli...or-clean-tech/

P.S. Chosun I share your passion for 're-greening' the landscape (and worry about some of the more creative technologies put forward), I agree with Fugl that this will not be enough - for the simple reason that it does not account for the additional carbon transferred from a mostly inert pool (geosphere) to the bio/hydro/atmosphere. We should still go for it, but additional means/tech are needed.
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Old Thursday 21st March 2019, 17:29   #607
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Oh and here's another point to consider in case anyone thinks peer review is all a bunch of secretive, corrupt, underhand, doing-your-mates-a-favour affair: open review journals. Many of them highly regarded, completely transparent and anyone can comment on the science and formatting. Never seen a climate change skeptic attempting to publish in one of those; after all it's much easier to complain to your audience that 'the community' purposefully shuts you out. Bah.
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Old Thursday 21st March 2019, 20:54   #608
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An honor roll—the top 10 deniers—
https://www.beforetheflood.com/explo...imate-deniers/
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Old Thursday 21st March 2019, 21:43   #609
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And climate scientists benefit from this how? You honestly think they get rich off this? That would be the most deluded thing I've read on this forum - barring Purple Heron of course, she's a true paragon of irrationality
Have to agree that PH takes the cake in that regard but honorable mention should go to fellow conspiracy theorist, elkcub, who was the first (IIRC) to espouse the “embattled-band-of-courageous-mavericks vs a corrupt-and-venal-scientific-establishment” theme in these forums
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Old Thursday 21st March 2019, 22:50   #610
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And climate scientists benefit from this how? You honestly think they get rich off this? That would be the most deluded thing I've read on this forum - barring Purple Heron of course, she's a true paragon of irrationality.

You mean my world of actual scientists and experts in their field, rather than a bunch of quacks, liars and unicorn-chasers? Quite comfortable in that elitist company thanks very much. And you know why? Because we actually put the effort in to finding out all this stuff for you. Not for a paycheck, not for 10 seconds of fame, but because we're geeks that can't stand not knowing how things work.
It's very simple, the undersigned of that letter are either clueless or disingenuous. Given the abundance of evidence there is no longer any excuse of the former, and still you think they deserve respect for their bad science, manipulation of data, and purposeful misleading of the general public? Future generations will not judge their selfish actions kindly.
If you think these scientists are going unpaid, you are duped beyond repair. I'd be interested to know just how benevolent that George Soros has been to these lot.
The Hungarian Black Hand always lurks behind the scenes.

As for your other comments, I could level them right back at you. In fact, I'd view the listed PhD's I shared as brave men and women who know they are going to flayed for bucking the trend. Galileo was as well.
Regarding the manipulation of data, you'd be wise to research the Oxford peer review clan that conspired to manipulate Climate Change data, just as NASA has been known (and proven) to do.
No 'side' has a corner on virtue or infallibility. With much of this we learn as we go. The science is far from 'settled' and hypocrites abound.
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Old Friday 22nd March 2019, 00:41   #611
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.... after all it's much easier to complain to your audience that 'the community' purposefully shuts you out. Bah.
Couldn't help but to react to this posting.
Our President just today signed an executive order mandating the freedom of speech on U.S. college campuses or they risk losing public funding. Why, you might ask? Because our colleges have become the domain of leftists, Socialists and Marxists. The free exchange of ideas has been replaced with bias, groupthink, and in some cases, public beat-downs of those expressing conservative or libertarian thought or free speech. The game has been rigged for far too long.

It was high time something was done about it. Your posting above is exactly what's wrong with the system. You trivialize just as they have.

The worm has turned.
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Old Friday 22nd March 2019, 10:26   #612
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Couldn't help but to react to this posting.
Our President just today signed an executive order mandating the freedom of speech on U.S. college campuses or they risk losing public funding. Why, you might ask? Because our colleges have become the domain of leftists, Socialists and Marxists. The free exchange of ideas has been replaced with bias, groupthink, and in some cases, public beat-downs of those expressing conservative or libertarian thought or free speech. The game has been rigged for far too long.

It was high time something was done about it. Your posting above is exactly what's wrong with the system. You trivialize just as they have.

The worm has turned.
Right let me react to this one first, because you haven't understood the content of my post.

First, no-platforming on university campuses I personally oppose. Anyone should have the opportunity and freedom to express their point of view. However, I would remind those that advocate unrestricted free speech of Article 19 in that same covenant:
3. The exercise of the rights provided for in paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special duties and responsibilities. It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary:
(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others;
(b) For the protection of national security or of public order (ordre public), or of public health or morals

Specific exclusions along these lines are also identified for the US First Amendment.
Those in power, and particularly the new brand of 'populist' politicians and commentators should be way more mindful of the precarious nature of such a precious right for all sides of the debate - all too often now it is used as a carte blanche to insult, polarize and inflame.
As for the specific presidential act, I support the principle but am cautious about the motivation and potentially opposed to the execution. The latter opens the door to direct government control over universities and research by enabling government agencies to direct or withhold federal funding streams based on their assessment of what is a very grey area. Surely, as someone who believes in free speech and opposes a 'big state' you would be opposed to this?

This aside, my original point was way more technical and cuts to the heart of an oft-heard accusation uttered by AGW deniers: namely, that they have plenty of good evidence to show that the consensus view is incorrect, but it is impossible to get this published in the scientific literature because of a corrupt, anonymous peer review system. The anonymity bit is crucial here, as it would technically allow any established scientist to rubbish opposing views with impunity. An elitist cordon sanitaire (for whatever reason). It's a great way for AGW deniers with a scientific background to pull the wool over their audience's eyes: "Look guys, I have the proof but those meanies are blocking me from publishing it. And it's all anonymous and confidential, so you'll never see what the reviewers said about my data; you'll just have to take my word for it that I'm right and they are willfully excluding me. It's an injustice!" [gratuitous Calimero reference intended]. And who without an academic background would know, right?
Except, it's all a load of bollocks.
Firstly, no paper gets reviewed by just one person. It's either two or three (and in some cases more) colleagues, who do this independently and simultaneously.
Second, the author of the paper is normally asked on the submission form to suggest reviewers for their work. So you could technically try and stack the cards in your favour, although this doesn't really work in practice.
Third, it is possible to notify a journal editor of potential reviewers who might have a personal and/or professional bias against you or your work. And should you suspect such after receiving back the reviews it is possible to raise a complaint of bias - in which case a further independent review is often sought.
Finally, and this is what I was alluding to in my post, there are plenty of good open-review journals in which the whole process is documented online and accessible to anyone. I've published in some of those and am generally supportive of this more transparent approach to peer review. These journals are accessible to all academic AGW deniers, and would present the perfect platform to submit their data/research if anyone was worried about reviewer bias. After all, anyone can comment on the work and see the discussion for themselves. So my question to you (and Ed, because you have made this argument in the past): why are none of them using open-review journals? It's highly unlikely they are unaware of them. No, my accusation is that smoke and mirrors are preferable to having your shit 'science' ripped apart in public. But hey, that's why nobody who knows anything takes them serious anymore
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Old Friday 22nd March 2019, 10:40   #613
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If you think these scientists are going unpaid, you are duped beyond repair. I'd be interested to know just how benevolent that George Soros has been to these lot.
The Hungarian Black Hand always lurks behind the scenes.
Oh damn so I should have emailed Soros when I co-authored that paper on ocean warming and marine ecosystems in the Antarctic? Now you're telling me! Would have made a nice addition to the backhanders I still receive from Vodafone

That aside, your reference to the 'Black Hand' fascinates me. Presumably it doesn't refer to the early 20th Century Serbian paramilitary group, so what does this allude to? I did a bit of internet searching for topics related to this, but had to wash my hard drive after doing that. Genuinely curious about the thought-processes behind this.


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As for your other comments, I could level them right back at you. In fact, I'd view the listed PhD's I shared as brave men and women who know they are going to flayed for bucking the trend. Galileo was as well.
Ah no such respect then for the non-PhDs?
I have a few other bits to do right now, but may have some fun with your list of brave troopers later.


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Regarding the manipulation of data, you'd be wise to research the Oxford peer review clan that conspired to manipulate Climate Change data, just as NASA has been known (and proven) to do.
No 'side' has a corner on virtue or infallibility. With much of this we learn as we go. The science is far from 'settled' and hypocrites abound.
Presumably you're referring to the 'Climategate scandal'? That was actually at UEA but close enough. Whilst the conduct of some of the people involved was certainly below standard, there is zero evidence of data being manipulated. Not by NASA that I'm aware of, but Ed might have a better insight as a former employee. For the record, the involved were investigated by no less than eight UK and US agencies and cleared in all cases. But you didn't read that on Breitbart News did you now?
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Old Friday 22nd March 2019, 10:44   #614
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An honor roll—the top 10 deniers—
https://www.beforetheflood.com/explo...imate-deniers/
I always knew I made the wrong career move when I declined that Shell recruiter at uni - thanks for the free beer though guys!
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Old Friday 22nd March 2019, 15:43   #615
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Forest for the trees, Nohatch, forest for the trees.

Watch The Godfather, the 'Black Hand' reference will make sense.
Tom Hanks was right about that film, many of life's answers lie therein.

Busy day...I'll read more here later.
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Old Friday 22nd March 2019, 16:22   #616
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Forest for the trees, Nohatch, forest for the trees.
Sorry you feel that way - happy to shine a little beam of lite to help you find your way

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Watch The Godfather, the 'Black Hand' reference will make sense.
Ah in that sense. I know little about the good Mr Soros, other than the fact he's considered some sort of Antichrist in particular unsavory circles. Odd really; can't see how anybody would have that kind of global reach.
But please enlighten me, who does he extort maffia-style and who does he reward?

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Tom Hanks was right about that film, many of life's answers lie therein.
Excellent film obviously, although I personally prefer Dr Strangelove

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Busy day...I'll read more here later.
I'd appreciate serious engagement with my points, rather than a bit of hand waving and proverbs - thanks.
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Old Friday 22nd March 2019, 18:46   #617
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. . .I know little about the good Mr Soros, other than the fact he's considered some sort of Antichrist in particular unsavory circles.
A foreign-born Jewish financier supportive of liberal causes, the reddest of red meat for the antisemitic far right.

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. . Busy day...I'll read more here later.
Sure you will. . ..

Good work Nuthatch. . ..
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Old Friday 22nd March 2019, 19:35   #618
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A foreign-born Jewish financier supportive of liberal causes, the reddest of red meat for the antisemitic far right.
.....
Ahh..the article skimmer himself.

Surely you mean the anti-Semitic left. Ironic, huh?..2020 is looking worse and worse due to bats t-crazy leftist Democratic Socialists. They simply can't help themselves.

But I digress.
Many Jews themselves loathe Soros. Israeli's hate the man, he isn't even welcome in his native Hungary, home to the largest Jewish population in Eastern Central Europe.

I'd suggest that you do some [email protected] homework, but I realize that suggestion is a waste of time.
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Old Friday 22nd March 2019, 19:41   #619
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A foreign-born Jewish financier supportive of liberal causes, the reddest of red meat for the antisemitic far right.
Reading his Wiki bio it appears he made most of his money as a hedge fund manager, predominately through short-selling. Yet supports a lot of socialist initiatives. Interesting ambivalence?
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Old Friday 22nd March 2019, 19:44   #620
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he isn't even welcome in his native Hungary
Simply the result of his feud with that little autocrat Orban - most of my Hungarian colleagues can't stand that little would-be-dictator. Plus he just got kicked out of his out EP party. Not someone whose side I'd pick.

P.S. is this really the place to stray into world politics? :)
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Old Friday 22nd March 2019, 20:31   #621
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Simply the result of his feud with that little autocrat Orban - most of my Hungarian colleagues can't stand that little would-be-dictator. Plus he just got kicked out of his out EP party. Not someone whose side I'd pick.

P.S. is this really the place to stray into world politics? :)
Typically, no. But with Soros, one must realize that his activism, paid pawns and dirty money are everywhere.
Without research it's hyperbole, but I suspect that he is the $ behind much of the AGW hype. The man is a billionaire.
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Old Saturday 23rd March 2019, 01:50   #622
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Ahh..the article skimmer himself..
Skimmer? Nah, most articles posted here I don’t even open.

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Surely you mean the anti-Semitic left. Ironic, huh?..
No, I mean the anti-Semitic right. You know the folks I mean, the kind that murder Jews in synagogues and paint swasticas on any available surface, all Dumbo—your “president”—supporters to a man.

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2020 is looking worse and worse due to bats t-crazy leftist Democratic Socialists. They simply can't help themselves. .
You’ll sing a different tune come the aftermath of the next election when we progressives and our Muslim allies sweep into North Idaho and seize your cattle and women!

I’m confused by “bats t-crazy”. What does the “t” signify and why the double spacing after “bats”?

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But I digress.
No, not at all, you’re well within your usual parameters. No need to beat-up on yourself.

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Many Jews themselves loathe Soros. Israeli's hate the man, he isn't even welcome in his native Hungary, home to the largest Jewish population in Eastern Central Europe.
No, no, no, the great majority of American Jews vote Democratic and admire and respect the man. It surprises me that you should think otherwise.

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I'd suggest that you do some [email protected] homework, but I realize that suggestion is a waste of time.
[email protected]? Come, come, do you really think God can be fooled by a mere typographical symbol?

And a “waste of (your) time”? Tut, tut, an unworthy remark. I’m always open to new facts and fresh perspectives. . ..

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Typically, no. But with Soros, one must realize that his activism, paid pawns and dirty money are everywhere.
Without research it's hyperbole, but I suspect that he is the $ behind much of the AGW hype. The man is a billionaire.
“Hyperbole”, illiterate as you use it here but illiterate or not, definitely not the mot juste. How about “speculation of the most asinine kind” instead?

——————————————————————————————————————————-
Sorry to have been so negative. . .I know you do the best you can.
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Old Saturday 23rd March 2019, 04:05   #623
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Ahh..the article skimmer himself.
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Skimmer? Nah, most articles posted here I don’t even open.
Hahaha LOL ! ... Tru Dat.
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Old Saturday 23rd March 2019, 04:19   #624
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Hahaha LOL ! ... Tru Dat.
Elkcub’s been unaccountably derelict in the defense of the poor little snowflake lately. Good to see a heavyweight like yourself (haha) stepping into the breach.
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Old Saturday 23rd March 2019, 16:15   #625
litebeam
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Slow day at the reflection pond?

For all of his bloviating, Trump has been the most Israel-friendly President in that State's history.
For someone to link him or his ardent supporters to antisemitism is rank stupidity. Socialists own that turf in 2019.
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