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Uk400club 'list Of Lists' Etc Etc (1 Viewer)

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Just a thought...how about a UK 'Rarity Finder's List' that would be far more interesting than chasing other peoples finds, surely far more kudos worth?....might even merit getting 'Birding' into the Olympics'......

http://www.bubo.org/Listing/view-all-lists.html#listtop

http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/surfbirds/display.cgi?list=list11&lowVal=0&highVal=49

These two lists are about the only attempts to keep track of self found listers, but clearly neither are anywhere near complete, and you'll see discrepancies between the two lists (possibly because people tend to count Irish stuff and non-BOU on their Surfbirds list - i know i do!). Personally i would say that Graham Catley was the greatest rarity finder, especially considering his residence in North Lincs.
 
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On the point of the "list of lists" I think Lee has the right to do what he wants, unless it is used for reasons that break laws! If that is what he is into then that's his life! You all may not like being on the lists but that's life really! Don't honestly see what Lee is doing wrong on this one!

I know nothing about twitching, it isn't something which would vaguely appeal to me, but I can't understand why somebody should be so inconsiderate and bad mannered as to NOT remove somebodies name when requested to do so.

I notice nobody has given any good reason as to why, other than the obvious one of deliberately trying to upset the individual, the name should not be removed.
 
I can understand why the ultra-committed folks at the top end of Lee's list might be so interested in the provenance of it, but why are others so bothered ? The top 50 /100 probably have a very good idea of each others lists ,anyway -surely they bump into each other at every mega ?
For the rest of us who will never compete at that level ( responsible jobs, family etc) who cares ? I'd like to make it past 500 before I kick the bucket, but I am not in competition with anyone - just enjoy your birds and don't get so obsessed with what eveyone else has seen.What does it matter if you're ranked 345th or 346th ?
 
.What does it matter if you're ranked 345th or 346th ?

It stresses me no end :-O

When I departed the UK for a little jaunt to Africa, my ranking must have been fairly respectable, but given I never made it back to the UK and that was in the mid-90s, my ranking has been in free fall for nigh on two decades!!! Can you imagine, I wake up every morning and pull at my hair 'oh no, another position or two down today'
 
Best not mention Elegant Tern H2....[all gone pear shaped on that one i believe]...!



ps..remember how they crippled that sav sparrow...? Poor buger needed a crutch after it was rung....:eek!:


http://username-beast.blogspot.com/

Since when? Accepted in N.Ireland by their rarities com.(and discussed on BF as late as 2005 as accepted)



I saw the sparrow before it was caught - so only remember a pristine bird! (Prob. ship-ass.!)
 
Since when? Accepted in N.Ireland by their rarities com.(and discussed on BF as late as 2005 as accepted)



I saw the sparrow before it was caught - so only remember a pristine bird! (Prob. ship-ass.!)

Re 'elegants'.....it seems that recent dna samples of the 'baseline'...[ie 'good'].. elegant tern in french colony has proved to be a hybrid..? Half carrot and half gull i think it was....or something like that...[Lee mentioned it on the wwscoter thread]...didn't he...? Never saw the Irish bird and have dipped two 'supposed' elegants in UK...so doesn't bother me either way up...;)

http://username-beast.blogspot.com/
 
Lee

Thanks for the offer. I may well give you a call. I do not think that it was implicit in my message which was simply a stab at a BOURC/Isle of Man/IRBC comparison. I have no idea what are the similar UK400/UK500 comparisons as I have not looked at what you count for a while. This may tempt me to do so. My message was deliberately restricted and certainly avoided being drawn into any of the personal debate.

I suspect that if you did a repeat of your Top Ten Listers (or Twenty to include low listers?) comparison in a similar way to your original Birding World one from twenty odd years ago it would counteract a considerable amount of the criticism by showing the substance behind your totals. If you stake your reputation on the accuracy of your rankings, you must surely expect people to ask you to confirm their substance.

All the best

Paul Chapman
 
Johnny

Your comments are way off the mark. Yes, there may be some lists such as your own that are misrepresentative of your true total, but as you probably don't have any idea what is or what isn't countable, then you probably don't have a clue what your UK400 Club list is anyhow. The majority of the published list totals are accurate - and on my desk at the moment are over 140 corrections (most very minor) to some that aren't. Why is the UK400 Club website consistently in the Top 20 and 30 of the most viewed birding websites in the World - because people have an interest in what the club is saying and what their take is on something. You have the cheek to pester me for information (eg a Surrey Red-footed Falcon phoned in direct to RBA) when it suits you but then at every opportunity attempt to have a cheap snide behind my back or write disruptive emails knowing all too well how it will spontaneously attract other Evans-haters into responding. Carmel was reflecting only last night after reading your comments how grateful Linda was (your girlfriend) for us allowing the two of you spend weekends at our place when you first got into twitching. I am my own man and I deal with people in the way that they deal with me and occasionally I need space on my own - hence the Alpine Swift and Bluethroat trips that tipped you over the edge and marred our friendship (from your point of view). These petty squabbles are just so tiresome and that's why I like to spend time on my own away from this nonsense and birdwatch on my own

Hi Lee,

I don't answer to you and I'm not going to play your silly games. Anyway, let's cut to the chase.

I do not twitch Irish birds, do not care for, nor subscribe to, the UK400Club and it's taxonomic and records decisions and have never submitted a list, nor do I ever wish to. I do not wish to be on your 'List of lists' and there is absolutely no vital reason for me to be on it. I respectfully ask that you remove my entry, which would only take a second. I ask this in a spirit of friendship and reconciliation.

A simple 'yes' will suffice.

Better and, in my opinion, bigger of you would be to also allow anyone else who does not wish to be on the aforementioned list to contact you and have their entry deleted if they wish it.

Kind regards

Johnny Allan
 
Paul

Many thanks for your reply and welcome any calls you make to me. All of the lists are on a massive excel sheet that is too large to place on the internet but once I know or have seen an individual at a rarity, a 1 is placed in that space and the programme automatically updates the Master Database for each species. Clearly, with some individuals, they have added many more birds than I am aware of.

As for Steve Webb's UK400 Club totals, I'm not sure if you read my response to you on the scoter forum. As far as I know, his total is 100% accurate in that he has seen 580 species. This places him in 5th position, with three from North Norfolk all sharing the top slot on 582 species and Chris Heard just 1 behind on 581. Steve though, is considered to be one ahead on the BOURC/IRBC listings compiled by BUBO.

The discrepancies/birds Steve has NOT seen are: Yelkouan Shearwater, North Atlantic Little Shearwater, Madeiran Storm Petrel, Eurasian Black Vulture, American Kestrel, Eleonora's Falcon, Eastern Red-footed Falcon, MacQueen's Bustard, South Polar Skua, African Royal/Royal Tern, Northern Hawk Owl, Bimaculated Lark, Lesser Short-toed Lark, Brown Thrasher, Eastern Bushchat, Siberian Blue Robin, Wood Thrush, Bicknell's Thrush, Dusky Thrush, Moltoni's Subalpine Warbler, Mugimaki Flycatcher, Tennessee Warbler, Eastern Towhee, Rock Sparrow, Pallas's Reed Bunting and Yellow-headed Blackbird

Although the publication of the lists into the public domain has caused such uproar, I have been extremely pleased with the response from those of you that have provided updates or have submitted for the first time - by 6pm tonight over 270 of you - it is very much appreciated and will make a major difference to the accuracy of the league table. The lowest list submitted has been of 340 species from Simon Pearce but I am grateful for all list submissions, especially those over 400 species which is the general cutoff.

I am currently attempting to update the ''Guidelines to Contentious Species'' to give one guidance on exactly which birds and which individuals can be counted, as many of you are confused by what birds are making the grade. Last year's HOUSE FINCH for example is still under review, whilst ELEGANT TERN remains fully acceptable but may well form part of a review when the French findings are finally released/published. On the next update in July, I shall make it perfectly clear that some totals are estimated and perhaps not reflective of a true figure, especially those never formally submitted.

It is interesting to see how many species the BOURC List has caught up with. In 1996, the two lists were 53 species adrift but with the BOURC catching up on many taxonomic changes and adding a few questionable wildfowl, that gap has now shortened to just 35. I am assuming the BOURC will adopt further taxonomic changes as I have, especially as they seem to follow recommendations of the AERC from where most of my additions are made, and that will see the gap shorten further.

At the end of the day, it is all a bit of fun and I am disappointed that certain individuals have got so hot under the collar about it - but that's life. We are all different and have different attitudes to things.
 
Hi Lee,


I do not twitch Irish birds, do not care for, nor subscribe to, the UK400Club and it's taxonomic and records decisions and have never submitted a list, nor do I ever wish to. I do not wish to be on your 'List of lists' and there is absolutely no vital reason for me to be on it. I respectfully ask that you remove my entry, which would only take a second. "

Ooh, can I have your place?

Phil
 
Why are people so sensitive about their list totals being published, such a trivial matter, its just numbers and a bit of fun. If Lee wants to spend some time collating the list, then so be it he isn't hurting anyone.
Back in the early 80's according to Lee's list of that time, I was the 72nd biggest lister in the UK, now I am not even in the top 1000, am I bothered cause I am... NOT.
Fair play to you Lee without you on the scene, birding would be a little duller.
I might even try and sort my total out, more than 415 less than 5008-P
Maybe you might know better than me.
:t:John
 
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Why are people so sensitive about their list totals being published, such a trivial matter, its just numbers and a bit of fun. If Lee wants to spend some time collating the list, then so be it he isn't hurting anyone.
Fair play to you Lee without you on the scene, birding would be a little duller.
I might even try and sort my total out, more than 415 less than 5008-P
Maybe you might know better than me.
:t:John

Dont worry John, we will get you a Bluetail one day so you can limp to 416 ;)
 
Why are people so sensitive about their list totals being published, such a trivial matter, its just numbers and a bit of fun. If Lee wants to spend some time collating the list, then so be it he isn't hurting anyone.
Fair play to you Lee without you on the scene, birding would be a little duller.
I might even try and sort my total out, more than 415 less than 5008-P
Maybe you might know better than me.
:t:John

Hi Cuddy.......you don't do much twitching these days do you...?...probably quite sensible...[tho seem to remember you went for a lesser kes in recent times]...

ps...i'm still not sensible...[no surprise]...so i'm off for the scottish quacker in the morning...:smoke:

All the best John...L3....:t:

http://username-beast.blogspot.com/
 
Johnny

I have made my position clear on this - other than a moral one, I am under no obligation to remove anybody's name from the listing and as far as I am concerned, if I see you twitching a particular bird or know of your presence there, I shall add each species on. In the same vein, various magazines/newspapers publish rich lists, detailing the estimated earnings of the top earners such as footballers, racing car drivers, pop stars, etc. Paul McCartney does not want to feature on any of these lists either, but his name is always there. I appreciate that some of the totals are incorrect, and perhaps always will be, but I am making attempts to redress this.

A few different topics:

Topic 1: Comparing Lists:
I have seen the only accepted BOURC record of Indigo Bunting which was on Ramsey Island. To my knowledge the Norfolk lads (e.g. Johns, Gantlett, Billington) did not see this bird. Is the Little Shearwater record that Ron Johns had still accepted by BB?

Topic 2: Requests for your UK400 total to be taken off the UK400 website, etc:

Under the Data Protection Act you have the legal right to request that Lee takes your list total off. It is Lee’s legal duty to remove them or alter them if they are wrong. Quite a lot of birders over the years have requested that their total is taken off (including Billy Simpson, Ron Johns). I also want my list total to be taken off the UK400.

Lee Evans does not have a legitimate reason to process any birder’s personal data (e.g. list totals/estimated totals) without the consent of the individual under the DPA including schedule 2 of the act. Many of the unauthorised totals are inaccurate, which also contravenes the DPA. The 1st Data Protection Principle requires that personal data shall be processed fairly and lawfully. In many cases, Evans has contravened the 1st, 4th and 6th DP principles.

The full details on the DP principles, which are fairly lengthy. However here is a high level summary of these principles. The 1st Principle requires that personal data shall be processed fairly and lawfully. This includes Lee Evans requesting your consent before processing your data to be held in his database and on his website. The 4th Principle requires that personal data be accurate and, where necessary, kept up to date. The 6th Principle requires that personal data shall be processed in accordance with the rights of data subjects under the Act. This includes you having visibility of what data is held on you, which means it is your right to request that Evans supply all information he holds on you. This would include the scoring system used to assess and grade your birding skills. Not only do you have the right to see all data held about you, but the 6th Principle includes that any inaccuracies found in the data by you shall be corrected by Evans. All these rights are covered in sections 7, 8 and 14 of the Act.
 
Hi Cuddy.......you don't do much twitching these days do you...?...probably quite sensible...[tho seem to remember you went for a lesser kes in recent times]...

ps...i'm still not sensible...[no surprise]...so i'm off for the scottish quacker in the morning...:smoke:

All the best John...L3....:t:

http://username-beast.blogspot.com/

Hi Col
I even went for the WT Plover last year as well. 3 new birds in the last 20 years and a few 'oldies' added ie Barrow's goldeneye (Irvine) and a few splits
I'll be on 425 in no time:smoke:
see you at Upton one day kid
B :)John
 
I was not aware this thread had been started, so thanks to Johnny for doing this. Also, thanks to those who emailed me to make me aware of it. I must apologies for (no doubt) being partly to blame for the closing of the WWS thread (which I was enjoying – up until the end anyway!).

So history has taught us that Lee has issues with a website which mentions his name, and carries (according to him) factually incorrect information about him – for understandable reasons he wants this information corrected or removed. Is this not the most ironic and hypocritical position that he now finds himself in? Surely he could not be in a better position to understand the calls of those few who have kindly asked to be removed from a website for which he is now responsible?

I sent Lee (as he suggested) a private email a few days ago, but as of this evening have had no response. I am, however, cautious of sending Lee private emails as once bitten twice shy. Many years ago I sent Lee some private comments about a certain record – he clearly disagreed with me (which, of course, he is untitled to do), but the first I knew of it was when he cut and pasted my comments and sent them to a public forum. This forum was also read by the observer being discussed, and whilst (luckily) it had no bearing on future relations between the observer and myself, it was a completely inappropriate, disloyal and petty move to make. I have moved on from that incident, and couldn’t care less now, but I vowed there and then that I would have no further dealings with him or the UK400 Club. Perhaps now he might understand why I never have had a wish to be included on the ‘list of lists’, and why I still request he removes me from his list. Further to this, the total he publishes for me is woefully inaccurate (both by BOU and UK400 Club rules). Lee may consider himself something like the ‘list police’ – but as I’m not in the manner of comparing my UK list (which certainly isn’t threatening to break the 500 mark anytime soon), it certainly doesn’t need policing. In-fact, if he ever asked me what it was on, I would be happy to provide a BOU figure – but I won’t submit an itemised list as these things really don’t matter to me.

I have to agree with Pariah here (something in itself rarer than a White-crowned Wheatear ;) that I find Lee to be a hypocrite and a liar. He also has a nasty habit of making insinuations about people in public, but when asked to explain or support his comments, he merely ignores the issue. It’s a cheap shot, and not one one would expect from someone trying to promote himself in a positive light. I agree too that the moderation of certain posts has been very inconsistent.

I want to make it clear that I have no personal gripe with Lee – on the few occasions I have birded with him, I have found him to be a very sharp and knowledgeable birder, and there is no denying the passion displayed for our hobby. That said, this (for me) has been out weighted by his destructive nature and belligerent attitude (sorry Lee, but I’m entitled to an opinion and I’m trying to keep it balanced).

As The Cumbrian has said – I have yet to hear any reason (let alone a good one), why it is such an issue to remove someone’s name when kindly requested to do so. This will only further alienate Lee and the UK400 Club. For the exact same (polite) reasons as listed in post #29 by Johnny, I again ask to be removed from this list.

. The same goes for all this pettiness with list removals - I won't be reading it - I shall just mark up people that don't want anything to do with me and believe their appearance is somehow aanctioning the UK400 Club will just get marked in red with an asterisk or removed after ten years of them leaving twitching..........

How do you know when someone has left twitching? Surely many people continue to twitch (to one degree or another) for many years after they stop turning up at major twitches. For instance, how many times have I twitched outside of my home county this year Lee? How many UK ticks have I had this year? Here’s another questions you should be able to answer if you know my list well enough to publish it – what is the commonest species I have yet to record in the UK (I’ll give you a clue – it breeds here).

Steve seems to have done his research (see post #37). So I’m interested to know what Lee’s response is to these facts. Or is this going to be another moment where his head is firmly stuck in the sand? I work for a company where we have to abide strictly to Data Protection rules, why should Lee be allowed (and even accepted) to work outside these rules. I’m sure that if someone was to publish personal information about his (say) bank account details he would use the DPA to its full effect (and who would blame him). Upstarts1979 asks why some are so bothered by it all. Well, its each to their own – some of us don’t want to be associated with the UK400 Club, and others are probably fed-up with their dealing with Lee – however, and above all, it’s their right to request these things, and there should be nothing wrong with that.
 
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