Have I been fooled by this Kestrel, Portugal? (1 Viewer)

All the birds today were seen on the Tagus area - Vila Franca

Interesting comments. In normal circumstances I don't always stop to look at Kestrels but at this time of year they might be Merlin or indeed Lesser - a Lesser has been hanging around the Algarve (interestingly I have just looked at the photos on ebird and its vey dark). In this case I was drawn to the two birds. They were both rufous and dark looking and through bins saw the female first. However, then the male and shit ALL blue head no moustache its a Lesser!

I grabbed the camera and they flew. Heres the caveats I was initially looking through the corner of the windscreen and against the light.

I took some snaps thinking I had enough to demonstrate lesser. I wasn't far from the visitor centre 'EVOA' so I went with what I had. None of the 'wardens' were there but I showed the pictures to the girl in the cafe. I also thought that I wouldn't have been the only person to see the birds. There is a radar project going on around the corner so I had a chat with them. Only then did the guy say are you sure of the id which I was at the time. I showed the pictures and thought hmmm do I actually have enough detail in the photo - so I went back.

A male Kes was on top of the post but at the same time a Short Eared Owl in flight and behind a Bonellis Eagle (both more interesting to me). Because of the rufous tones I had assumed it was the same bird. What are the odds of two males from different species showing this colouring on the same post 1 hour apart? All other Kestrels I had seen today were Common and not rufous...

I'm on limited optics - 50mm Nikon scope - but I tried to get some snaps as the bird flew...

Only back at base did I notice that the photos from the second visit, bird in post three, had a hint of the moustache - the blue looks a shade lighter or is that wishful thinking. Hence the have I been duped title. The bird I saw through the windscreen (subject to caveats above) didn't or at least I thought not.

I will have a bash at doing something more with the photos in the morning. I maybe have got lazy with my camera and the expert help I get on here but if the guy hadn't put a hint of doubt that my original photos weren't good enough I wouldn't have gone back!

Some of my other snaps today...

Deb Burhinus said:

A 2cy male could only really be identified this time of year by retained juvenile flight feathers cf to adult feathers moulted in. This would translate in October as either clearly barred tertials and barred inner coverts on a 2cy Lesser Kestrel or new grey adult feathers which have replaced them or at least a mix of both

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I guess you are right Deb

tconzemi said:

I guess you are right Deb

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I probably should apologise for my last post (especially given your very well thought of expertise by me and everyone else on BF!), reading it back, it came over as more argumentative than the quality of the image probably merits (no offence robsifs,). The reasoning that any present spotting on the feathers (CK) have ‘disappeared’ because of image quality, could also support an argument that any barring or grey feathers have too (LK). So I think you are right too, and it’s probably best left unidentifiable at this point

rosbifs said:

Some of my other snaps today...

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Lovely to see the image of the Osprey (with an enormous fish!), I’ve really missed seeing them this summer.

Deb Burhinus said:

it’s probably best left unidentifiable at this point

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I agree
There are arguments in favour of both options, but image quality does not allow to take definitive conclusions.

I just saw in your ebird checklist for the day that you considered Red Avadavat as "cage birds". Well, they were so quite a few decades ago, but now they are found in many places, mostly in Southern PT (e.g. near the border with Spain, Elvas, I estimated about 2000 individuals (yes) in Dec 1998 in a relatively small wetland area. They are in category C and can be "counted" if you like plastic o Other species in cat C are Black-headed Weaver, Yellow-crowned Bishop, Common Waxbill, Ring-necked Parakeet and newly added or about to are Red-billed Leiothrix, Blue headed Parakeet, Pin-tailed Whydah and Scaly-breasted munia (and in the Algarve, there's also an Agapornis increasing in numbers), Egiptian Goose. Black-headed Munia, formerly in cat C, has most likely become extinct.

RafaelMatias said:

I agree
There are arguments in favour of both options, but image quality does not allow to take definitive conclusions.

I just saw in your ebird checklist for the day that you considered Red Avadavat as "cage birds". Well, they were so quite a few decades ago, but now they are found in many places, mostly in Southern PT (e.g. near the border with Spain, Elvas, I estimated about 2000 individuals (yes) in Dec 1998 in a relatively small wetland area. They are in category C and can be "counted" if you like plastic o Other species in cat C are Black-headed Weaver, Yellow-crowned Bishop, Common Waxbill, Ring-necked Parakeet and newly added or about to are Red-billed Leiothrix, Blue headed Parakeet, Pin-tailed Whydah and Scaly-breasted munia (and in the Algarve, there's also an Agapornis increasing in numbers), Egiptian Goose. Black-headed Munia, formerly in cat C, has most likely become extinct.

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It’s crazy the number of ‘foreign’ species. I don’t keep lists and only started using ebird from a recommendation on here because of visiting Portugal... I changed the ‘cage birds’ tag this morning because I thought it sounded a bit silly and warranted something more. I use the ebird site a fair bit for info - I even noticed someone had a monties harrier the time I was on and around the reserve!

At the time and with other birds on your list I’m thinking what the hell is this! Like this ‘Crested Myna’ I saw in Cascais last week...

I don’t really keep or certainly maintain a list but I did take the time to update and edit it during lockdown this year. I was surprised by the number of birds I have seen around Luz in the time i have lived there - that’s on ebird too. I have maybe three category c on there of which a leothrix is one but in France. No you mention it silverbill and sacred Ibis (both France) are not counted (I think they captured or culled the population of sacred ibis around Narbonne ).

As for the kestrel my friend is collecting her works laptop tomorrow which is sd card compatible.... I am more than happy to email any pictures direct to the experts for scrutiny if that makes life easier...

Yep, Crested Myna was missing from my list above of Cat. C birds. Nesting since 1997 (at least) it's now self sustainable with colonies on several places.
I've done quite a bit of work on non-natives some years ago, and produced a dedicated field guide on all non-native species breeding in Portugal with all other non-established species also covered: http://biblioteca.avesdeportugal.info/avesexotic.html
Updates were produced regularly with all the new info, but I haven't worked on that for a few years now, just too many other things to do.

I can't do much better than this

In fairness there looks to be no moustachal stripe - looks like that was a hint of a shadow...

These are the last of use - Deb or Tom I'm happy to email originals - or anyone who wants to comment - just pm me an address....

rosbifs said:

In fairness there looks to be no moustachal stripe - looks like that was a hint of a shadow...

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Thanks Rosbifs - Tbh I still think that’s debatable, even with these images. The intensity of the moustache can vary on CK - check the moustache on the first male in the link here - also note the shape vis a vis it is wider at the base curling round slightly under the cheek as in your image as well as showing a line at the rear of the eye
http://blascozumeta.com/wp-content/...on-passeriformes/131.kestrel-ftinnunculus.pdf

Your latest image of the male facing us looks very ‘anaemic’ and washed out to me - not a very ‘real’ interpretation of what I would expect for an accurate colour intensity for either species. Perhaps, a slight adjustment of levels might make a difference?

I'm now also thinking a pale, washed out Common Kestrel. I initially thought Lesser; would have liked to close in on the claws, just out of interest.

Any final thoughts Tom or Rafael?

Leaning to being duped, at least with a little justification from the photos...

rosbifs said:

Any final thoughts Tom or Rafael?

Leaning to being duped, at least with a little justification from the photos...

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I guess there are no more information in the new pics, leaning towatds Common now too, anyway good threat