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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Thursday 14th June 2018, 20:28   #851
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Hi Diana,

Quote:
If you can write "hello world" you can change the world.
― Raghu Venkatesh
"Goodbye world" doesn't work.

Love ya,
Ed
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Old Thursday 14th June 2018, 23:09   #852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
@ jape, Nohatch, JS Bach et al. I think we have all got a bit too antagonistic at times. I often feel harassed, pressed for time, and inadequate when it comes to defending my side of the argument; there are others who could do it better, but they are not here. So perhaps this debate has not solved anything. We have not changed each others' minds, certainly not yet, but I still think it is an issue worth raising, and I would very much like to see it debated in the public arena. It disturbs me greatly that this is not happening, and won't happen, and it says the wrong things about our society that there should be no debate about a technology that is taking over our lives and our societies. By 2020, 5G will be in. Everywhere. Whether we like it or not, whether it's dangerous or not. Period.

Perhaps this is an example of what jape calls "intuitive reasoning" but I see patterns emerging that I find deeply disturbing. Politically and economically, the world is in a very dangerous place right now. And I see 5G sitting in the middle of it, like a spider in its web. We don't have a free press anymore--the mainstream media outlets are all owned by the same few people. We don't have economies anymore; we have monetary policy, which again is run by a very few people. Economically and politically we are repeating patterns the like of which we saw before the first and second world wars. And on top of that we are about to create a sort of Big Brother world where everybody, and everything everybody does, can be tracked, monitored, and analyzed to death. When it's all online, they can cut you off at the press of a button. You won't exist. They can erase your bank account, your degrees, your history, your very identity. It will not be about "connectivity"; it will be about control. And it will be total. And nobody is seeing the whole picture.

If you have time I'd like you to look at an article by John Ward, a retired PR consultant turned blogger. He presents a very bleak view of what might happen if we have another economic crash (which many people feel is coming, and which could be very bad indeed). I want you to add 5G to to the picture that Ward presents. Imagine 5G as a weapon to be used by governments against their citizens--and the military using 5G weapons like Active Denial System on rioting populations. Who will 5G serve then? Certainly not you or me. Here's the link: https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2018/06...the-real-world

I'd also like you to take a look at an article about how the chemical industry gets toxic chemicals approved--stuff like neonicotinoids. That's at https://www.publicintegrity.org/2016...oxic-chemicals
The point I am making here is that I have been told, repeatedly, by scientists who work on EMR, that exactly the same thing is happening when it comes to wireless technologies. You may say you refuse to believe it, but before you do, remember that companies associated with wireless technologies are hugely rich and hugely powerful. They aren't just guiding the narrative; they are writing it, scripting it and selling it. It's the biggest PR con job in human history.

I don't know if I can begin to communicate the depth of my unease about all this. Yes, I do believe that EMR has harmful biological effects. But I also think there is a lot more wrong with wireless technologies than that, and that 5G is going to be really, really bad idea in other ways as well. So just think about that. Try to look past the PR about the bright connected future and think about the other implications. Then ask yourself if you're really so keen to jump on the 5G bandwagon.

I have to run. Thanks for the compliments on my art--always welcome. The one you like, Joost, is one one my own favorites--we might get along at that. However, I can't recommend Samos for a holiday. In addition to very few birds and dying trees we now also have TB in the community. I don't think it's very safe here.
Ah, I knew that your dissatisfaction with the modern world ran deeper than “just” EMR but didn’t realize it ran quite that deep. I share some of your misgivings, particularly with the rise of neo-fascist movements in Europe and the States (how else to describe “Trumpism”, a curse on his name!) not to mention the increasing importance of authoritarian governments (China) elsewhere on the world stage. That said, as has been pointed out numerous times, all that can be reasonably said about attempts to predict the general course of human history is that they invariably miss the mark. The coldest of cold comfort I know, particularly since some things are all too certain, among which is the fate of non-human life. I find it inconceivable that wild nature won’t take terrific hits in coming decades however the politics play out. Sigh, and sigh again. ..

Hang in there. And peace. . .it’s out of your control as it is for all of us. . ..
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Old Friday 15th June 2018, 14:02   #853
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@ Chosun Lovely piece, Desiderata. And I do take a large part of every day to walk, swim, and farm. Why live on an island otherwise? I don't own a television or any mobile device. I try to stay away from the madness, but it impinges --I live in Greece, after all, which means economic and political chaos, on an island drowning in refugees and migrants. I disagree that politically and economically the world is in better shape today than it was yesterday. From where I sit, it's all going to hell in a hand-basket. There is also much good. I try to take it as it comes. I want the world to keep its varied abundance, but we are losing it. Therefore I protest.

@ Ed Hello, world.

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Old Friday 15th June 2018, 14:19   #854
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Months ago when I first came on Birdforum I tried to find out if anyone was noticing the same phenomena as I was--disappearing birds and insects, a loss of diversity. Pretty much all of you (not everyone) told me that you hadn't noticed anything particularly wrong: things were pretty normal. So I wondered if it was just me, or just Greece where things were disappearing.

Over time, I found and posted various pieces showing the people were noticing a fall in bird and insect numbers. Yesterday I found this: "Chris Packham Warns an'Ecological Apocalypse' Looms for Great Britain." That's at https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...-great-britain
The birds aren't there any more, he says. Nor the insects, nor the flowers. The article doesn't say what Packham attributes these declines to--only that he's very upset about them.

It is a dreadful thing to lose biodiversity--so fast and so markedly. I am glad someone else has noticed that everything is not "just fine". That's a start. You all know I believe that EMR plays a role in this, because that is what I've observed. It will be interesting to see how this develops.
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Old Friday 15th June 2018, 15:38   #855
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that was reported in the Conservation section last Tuesday, others have noticed and posted about the loss of birds, snowyowl two weeks ago for example. recently someone else remarked on IOT devices in countryside affecting birds.

there are a number of concerned people, but it doesn't get much commentary.

people are aware of ecological disaster, observe and report, it is partly just that you have fought your corner harder and longer and aroused more opposition ...!

the campaign for life has many facets and even martyrs. look up greenham common on wikipedia.
you are not alone PH.

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Old Friday 15th June 2018, 19:02   #856
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
@ Chosun Lovely piece, Desiderata.....
I'm really glad you like the "Desiderata" Diana .... it's a goodun, and one to refer to often

I sympathize with your inundation and over exploitation plight .... my people are no strangers to invasion and the destruction it brought .....

There is a thread already existing for the "Ecological Apocalypse" article:
https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=363106

It will be interesting to see whether research can pinpoint the variables and quanta involved. I think it is very difficult to separate out the multiple causes of ecological impacts we see (I look to Ed as the statistical and experimental design guru).
My money would be on the Web of life being most affected by:
1. Vegetation/structure loss, wetland, riparian and old growth loss and associated hydrological functioning degradation, soil loss and terminal erosion, and land use changes, desertification cycle, and urbanisation
2. Chemical impacts (mostly via industrial agriculture, accelerating under GMO)
3. Other

You might also find this v - e - r - y interesting - nay, fascinating! (both for the cutting edge knowledge and the personal story /journey): https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=342128

Smile and stay positive :)



Chosun

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Old Sunday 17th June 2018, 13:43   #857
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@ Chosun I had a look at your thread and, while I didn't have time to read everything, I can promise you that I will. We are always looking for ways to minimize water loss/evaporation on our land; we can use piped water but that is expensive for crops and we collect rainwater--unfortunately the huge old deposit is at the bottom of the land and we have to do a lot of manual water-hauling. Sometimes I feel a bit like the characters in "The Yearling" if you have ever read it. I feel there must be better ways to farm and use land than people do--the Greeks always want to see the land "clean" which means mowing down, rototilling, ploughing up and sometimes spraying every last weed. I like weeds--they are actually flowers--except for choking vines that one has to remove before they strangle everything. And of course you have to keep a balance--fennel plants will take over a terrace in no time and they have long, strong roots which mean they are a devil to remove. On the other hand, the swallowtail caterpillars live on them... Anyway this material looks very interesting and I will read it and hopefully learn some things we can try out.

I share your concern about waterways. The EU has a scheme to link major rivers with the Med and the Black seas, which will be an ecological nightmare. They want to run a canal through northern Greece to link the Danube with the Med. It will run through Lake Doirani on the Greek-FYROM border (protected area, part of Kerkini) and down through the Axios Delta (protected area, major bird area). I have not seen any protests--I'd have expected a lot of screaming from the various NGOs but they haven't said a word that I've noticed. It makes me so angry!

I don't disagree with the problems you list above except that I would put EMR in place of 3/Other. I think it's more important than people realize but how to rate 1,2 and 3 in order of importance? I'd put them all at 1, tied for first place. The thing about trees, for instance, is that we need them to absorb carbon. We will always produce carbon, and getting rid of carbon-producing technologies (cars, for instance) may be less important than insuring we have lots of trees to absorb it. Every infrastructure project I've ever seen gobbles trees, and if the people who are saying that 5G will hugely increase the chance of major forest fires and penetrate forest canopy (thereby killing trees) are right, I don't think the world can afford to take that risk. (See my post below).
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Old Sunday 17th June 2018, 14:21   #858
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The War on Trees

Wireless technologies and trees don't, it seems, mix. You can have one or the other, but not both--so take your pick.

This at least is the message from the Telegraph and the Sun, both of which have published articles recently complaining that trees get in the way of wireless signals:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/583849...problem-trees/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...e-signals.html

Obviously, trees are going to interfere with 5G. The solution? Simple. Cut them down. This is what they are doing in Sheffield, where some 35,000 mature trees are scheduled for the chop. I've seen several articles about this, and 5G is never mentioned--but apparently the link with 5G is being much discussed on Facebook. I'm not on FB, but if anyone is, you can look this up. Apparently Chris Packham went up there and had a fit--well done to him!
https://theecologist.org/2018/apr/27...rore-continues

The dangers of EMR aside, I don't know how anyone can countenance getting rid of trees to install 5G. Even if I didn't believe 5G was going to be incredibly harmful, even if I thought 5G was the best invention ever, I would not want to sacrifice trees to have it. And I can't believe the Telegraph and the Sun published those articles, especially the Telegraph, shortly after publishing an article saying that wireless technologies pose a "credible threat" to nature. The world is going mad. Really mad. Who in his right mind would rather have a cell tower or a small cell outside of his house than a tree?

At the Eklipse conference, I met a number of scientists who are very concerned about the effects of wireless on trees. I have, at different times, posted various studies about the effects of EMR on trees. I've just attached another, which looks at wave-scattering patterns of EMR signals in forests. It's complicated and highly technical, and it's not looking at whether EMR will be good or bad for trees, but only at the physics of wave-scattering. As the study notes, the telecoms companies are looking at this too. They want to make sure their signals get everywhere they send them. Given the Sun and Telegraph articles, and the recent rash of tree-cutting in Sheffield, is it fair to say that they have concluded trees are an impediment?

The War on Trees has begun. I don't think the trees are going to win unless a lot of people sign up to fight on their side. Is 5G really worth the sacrifice?

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Old Monday 18th June 2018, 21:17   #859
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All,

I read this 2008 study about mobile telephone radiation effects on flies (Drosophila) some time ago and then it got lost on my computer. I'm not sure if it was one of PH's earlier attachments, or I originally located it on my own, but the research overview and experimental results were quite impressive. I would imagine follow-up work was done by others, but it's not my field.

Quote:
Abstract
A number of serious non thermal biological effects, ranging from changes in cellular function
like proliferation rate changes or gene expression changes to cell death induction, decrease in the
rate of melatonin production and changes in electroencephalogram patterns in humans, population
declinations of birds and insects, and small but statistically significant increases of certain types of
cancer, are attributed in our days to the radiations emitted by mobile telephony antennas of both
handsets and base stations. This chapter reviews briefly the most important experimental, clinical
and statistical findings and presents more extensively a series of experiments, concerning cell death
induction on a model biological system. Mobile telephony radiation is found to decrease
significantly and non thermally insect reproduction by up to 60%, after a few minutes daily
exposure for only few days. Both sexes were found to be affected. The effect is due to DNA
fragmentation in the gonads caused by both types of digital mobile telephony radiation used in
Europe, GSM 900MHz, (Global System for Mobile telecommunications), and DCS 1800MHz,
(Digital Cellular System). GSM was found to be even more bioactive than DCS, due to its higher
intensity under equal conditions. The decrease in reproductive capacity seems to be non-linearly
depended on radiation intensity, exhibiting a peak for intensities higher than 200 μW/cm2
and an intensity “window” around 10μW/cm2 were it becomes maximum. In terms of the distance from a
mobile phone antenna, the intensity of this “window”corresponds under usual conditions to a
distance of 20-30 cm. The importance of different parameters of the radiation like intensity, carrier
frequency and pulse repetition frequency, in relation to the recorded effects are discussed. Finally,
this chapter describes a plausible biophysical and biochemical mechanism which can explain the
recorded effects of mobile telephony radiations on living organisms.
Comments would be appreciated, particularly about the "plausible biophysical and biochemical mechanism" (in minimally technical terms, if possible. )

Thanks,
Ed

PS. Diana, this was one study that motivated me to sign the petition.
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Old Monday 18th June 2018, 23:11   #860
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It should be noted that the Panagopoulos, et. al. paper has an extensive bibliography, the last item of which is an outstanding paper from 2003 on humans. It's probably the most rigorous effort that I've seen to date and an excellent example of how such research should be done, ... but of course, it doesn't answer every question.

Based on this study, there clearly is some evidence of adverse radiation effects on human cognition and performance. This and studies like it should be considered very carefully before embarking on a major commitment to upgrade the worldwide communication system — IMHO.

Ed

PS. Since writing this I've become aware that the study has been criticized in 'review' articles, but the particulars are not clear and it would be interesting to know what they are.
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Old Tuesday 19th June 2018, 14:56   #861
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@ Ed Many thanks for the above. I think I did post the Panagopouls and Margaritis study, or referenced it in my paper about Northern Greece. There is some very good work out there. Lots of studies are posted on Joel Moskowitz' site at https://www.saferemr.com. He is the director of the Center for Family and Community Health, School of Public Health, University of California, Berkeley. Worth a look if you have time.
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Old Thursday 21st June 2018, 12:37   #862
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Thanks for the information, did not think that cell phones are so dangerous to health
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Old Thursday 21st June 2018, 14:22   #863
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@ Ed You might also be interested in the attached study by Martin Blank and Reba Goodman.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Blank, M. Electromagnetic Fields Stress Living Cells.pdf (281.2 KB, 10 views)
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Old Saturday 23rd June 2018, 12:54   #864
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I've come across a couple of good articles lately, which pretty much sum up the thrust of this thread. Many of the links have already been posted on this thread, but there is also some new stuff, so have a look.

"Here's proof that cellphone masts are dangerous to all species" https://highwaymail.co.za/295641/her...erous-species/

"5G to kill the birds, the bees and your loved ones?" https://principia-scientific.org/5g-...ur-loved-ones/

https://whatis5g.info/ is an excellent site containing all kinds of information about 5G. The following page has lots of links to studies and articles about the effects of wireless technologies and 5G on wildlife: https://whatis5g.info/environmental-impacts/

And finally, worry about the effects of Wi-Fi is seeping into he public consciousness, as this article from the Daily Mail shows. "Could Wi-Fi be giving our children cancer?" https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ren-cancer.htm
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Old Saturday 23rd June 2018, 18:34   #865
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Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
@ Ed You might also be interested in the attached study by Martin Blank and Reba Goodman.
Hi Diana,

Comments from the biochemically and biomedically gifted among us would be useful here.

Thanks,
Ed
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Old Sunday 24th June 2018, 14:10   #866
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@ Ed Indeed! What do you say, though, when the conversation stops dead at the ICNIRP contention that non-ionizing radiation is incapable of causing any harmful biological effects unless tissue is heated? If there are no non-thermal effects, non-ionizing radiation must by definition be harmless, as ICNIRP contends. If there are non-thermal effects, whether or not we have correctly identified the mechanisms which cause these effects, we are doing immense damage to ourselves and everything else. And I'm not qualified to argue the point on a biochemical or biomedical level.
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Old Monday 25th June 2018, 00:27   #867
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@ Ed Indeed! What do you say, though, when the conversation stops dead at the ICNIRP contention that non-ionizing radiation is incapable of causing any harmful biological effects unless tissue is heated? If there are no non-thermal effects, non-ionizing radiation must by definition be harmless, as ICNIRP contends. If there are non-thermal effects, whether or not we have correctly identified the mechanisms which cause these effects, we are doing immense damage to ourselves and everything else. And I'm not qualified to argue the point on a biochemical or biomedical level.
Hi Diana,

The Panagopoulos et al paper, and others, concluded that there are adverse non-thermal effects on biological tissue. My impression is that since these are physically unexplained, hard to find outside a laboratory, and therefore hard to validate, the political and regulatory communities simply can't cope with them. So they set standards based on what they believe to be the underlying physics, close their eyes and hope for the best in the name of progress. Other than call for more research, I'm at a loss what else to suggest.

This continues to be an interesting thread, however, and I thank you for starting it.

Ed
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Old Monday 25th June 2018, 14:24   #868
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@ Ed Unless, of course, we are seeing these effects outside a laboratory on a daily basis: children becoming ill from Wi-Fi at schools, significant rises in ADD and autism and Alzheimer's, falling fertility rates worldwide, many species of bird that were once common or numerous becoming threatened or endangered, CCD, disappearing insects, rising rates of cancer (brain, testicular, etc,)--you get the point. We seem to be depending solely on physics to tell us whether EMR is dangerous, but can physics accurately tell us what pulsed EMR does to a living cell? Can physics explain why exposure to EMR does or does not cause oxidative stress? The anti-wireless literature stresses repeatedly that the physicists say these effects cannot happen while the biologists (to use the term loosely) say they can, and do. It's not a question I can answer, and we seem to hit the same wall in this thread. I think the physicists are wrong, but I can't defend that position beyond what I have observed. So I agree--we need more research, using agreed protocols and refined techniques. Glad you enjoy the thread, though. I feel it's a subject that needs airing.
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Old Monday 25th June 2018, 16:35   #869
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falling fertility rates worldwide
"Fertility rate" is simply the average number of children per woman. An excellent overview of why the fertility rate has decreased globally is given here: https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate

Don't conflate this with "infertility", which is the inability to conceive after a prolonged period of time. Global infertility rates did not change significantly between 1990 and 2010: http://www.who.int/reproductivehealt...ity/burden/en/
and the actual paper in PLoS ONE: http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicin...l.pmed.1001356

If you want to make the point that EMF radiation is going to cause widespread infertility (and as a consequence reduce fertility rates) then please use correct terminology; and based on the epidemiological evidence such a notion is not supported.

Thanks,
J
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Old Monday 25th June 2018, 17:59   #870
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@ Ed Unless, of course, we are seeing these effects outside a laboratory on a daily basis: children becoming ill from Wi-Fi at schools, significant rises in ADD and autism and Alzheimer's, falling fertility rates worldwide, many species of bird that were once common or numerous becoming threatened or endangered, CCD, disappearing insects, rising rates of cancer (brain, testicular, etc,)--you get the point.
Diana - I do wish you'd stop vacillating between reasoned argument and cheap headlines. Once again, you go from the prescient missionary to the class clown in one swing, losing support as you go.

I'd just started to give you back some credibility, just started to think I should rethink my position and read some more - and then you conflate a mass rag-bag of human ailments and throw it squarely at the door of the EMogre. You don't mention the basic likelihoods of ageing populations, of better research and training for the medical profession as being possible causes of increase in cancer diagnoses, ADD, autism and ragged bowel syndrome. You don't mention over-population as a very obvious reason for the decline in animal habitat and food source.

What about Trumpism as a reason for CCD or EMR or the rise of neo-fascism in tulip populations?

What about Gaia? Probably the best reason for the decline and fall of Homo sapiens is the simple fact that Mother Earth has had enough of us.

Peter
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Old Monday 25th June 2018, 20:24   #871
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And she doesn't mention the well-known and understood causes for many of the declines noted in wildlife species, especially in insects. Nor does she mention that some of the effects (wildlife and human) are not being observed in some countries with very developed 4G networks.
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Old Monday 25th June 2018, 20:29   #872
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"Fertility rate" is simply the average number of children per woman. An excellent overview of why the fertility rate has decreased globally is given here: https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate

...
J
That's a keeper!

Ed
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Old Monday 25th June 2018, 20:33   #873
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"Fertility rate" is simply the average number of children per woman. An excellent overview of why the fertility rate has decreased globally is given here: https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate
Our Purple Heron does get confused by this - Lithuania's fertility rate is increasing, but she tried to dismiss this by saying it wasn't relevant as fertility rate doesn't actually show anything, but has since then repeatedly tried to use fertility rate to support her cause!
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Old Tuesday 26th June 2018, 14:47   #874
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@ Ed, Peter, Joost Yes, that is a good and comprehensive piece on fertility, and I am well aware of all the reasons for declining fertility rates (taken to mean average number of births per woman). However, there is a growing trend for people to seek fertility treatments in order to have children, and this has changed over the past few decades. Forty years ago, very few people sought help in order to conceive, whereas now it is commonplace. In Greece, fertility clinics have very long waiting lists, and I read an article a few months ago in the Greek press saying that treatment for infertility (i.e. inability to conceive) has come to be regarded as part of the cost of getting married. This argues that many people wish to have children but are unable to do so. That people regularly use fertility treatments in order to have children is evident in society if one looks at the large numbers of twins these days. Twins used to be a rarity, but not now, when multiple fertilised eggs are implanted to maximise the success rates of fertility treatments. And I don't think that this is a totally Greek phenomenon, either. It is a subject that comes up in books and in films frequently enough to make anyone realise that this is a live social issue. There are a great many cases of couples who want to have children and find that one or the other of them is not capable of conceiving a child.

Obviously there may be a number of reasons why people have trouble conceiving, and I am suggesting EMR as a cause, though it will not of course be the only one. Many women, for instance, wait too long before they try to have children, and this reduces their chances of conceiving successfully. However, this does not address the issue of male infertility, which as I understand it is also growing, and there are numerous studies looking at the effect of EMR on sperm/male fertility.

It has been suggested that one of the reasons driving the encouragement of mass migration into Europe is to compensate for Europe's steeply declining birth rates. If EMR is causing infertility, we may presume that the immigrant population will also, in time, start to become infertile as well. Where I live, the refugee camp is bathed in Wi-Fi 24/7, in addition to being situated under a cell tower. Every adult immigrant is given a smartphone, and most of them seem to spend most of their time engaged with it. The children also go to school in a Wi-Fi environment (all Greek schools have Wi-Fi, although a number of countries are starting to ban Wi-Fi in schools). You may argue that the countries these people come from also have wireless communications, but the degree of exposure may vary hugely (I saw a study measuring exposure in different countries, and exposure does vary a lot--Europe is quite high), and many of these places are probably not wall-to-wall 4G or 4G+ with public Wi-Fi thrown in for good measure. Of course, the problem with waiting to see what will happen to these people in terms of fertility is that, should EMR be causing infertility, you are going to have very few people left who can actually conceive--and they may have damaged DNA which will result in the following generation being infertile.

I posted a study a while back by the Kaiser-Permanente Institute showing that chances of miscarriage also rise as a result of exposure to EMR. I don't have any information one way or another about whether rates of miscarriage and spontaneous abortion are rising, but the study certainly suggested a potentially fruitful avenue of enquiry.

If EMR causes or contributes to infertility, there is no reason why the effects should be limited to human populations. Birds, animals etc. do not carry smartphones in their pockets, but there is a great deal of ambient EMR in the environment. Where I live, it is very difficult to get as far as a mile from a cell tower, and most of the time there are several at various points of the compass, with only a few shadow areas which are shielded from direct signal. I have mentioned before that we have many dying trees, and that insect and bird numbers are greatly diminished. Now, for instance, the thyme is blooming. It ought to be covered in bees, but it is not. We walked about 5 miles the other day, lots of thyme (and oregano, and savory) blooming by the wayside, but no bees at all. Not one. Other creatures have a much shorter life span and shorter reproductive cycle. Assuming EMR affects their fertility rates, this could help to explain falling bird and insect numbers.

In brief, there is a lot of research suggesting EMR affects both male and female fertility. I am not confusing other causes for falling birth rates with infertility, though with human populations there are a number of factors at play which could explain falling birth rates without reference to EMR. But when people want to have children and cannot, EMR may well be a cause of this, and possibly a major factor.

There are obviously other factors at play in declining bird and insect populations, and I do not discount these either. We continue to hew down forests, use toxic chemicals and generally treat the earth we live on as if we hated it. The fact that one issue is pressing does not make the others less so. But I do feel that EMR is dangerous, and that it contributes to all of the problems that we are making. It is also a problem that we can solve. We do not need wireless communications to grow crops to feed the world. We can communicate, easily and quickly, without them, and do without them if we must. I can conceive of arguments for using pesticides and creating more arable land in a crowded world. I can conceive of no argument to justify the expansion of a technology that is at best a convenience and worst a highly dangerous and addictive toy.

Last edited by Purple Heron : Wednesday 27th June 2018 at 11:29.
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Old Tuesday 26th June 2018, 18:19   #875
Jos Stratford
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Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
We walked about 5 miles the other day, lots of thyme (and oregano, and savory) blooming by the wayside, but no bees at all. Not one.
As an aside, I was in Greece again these last days - very good numbers of butterflies again (main point of my trip), and stacks and stacks of bees. Just a casual observation.

Hillside track in Greece last week - flowers to the side were abuzz with bees - all the black dots are bees flying back and fro. Sorry for quality of image - heavily cropped to show the bees :)
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