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Cell tower radiation harms birds

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Old Thursday 14th June 2018, 19:28   #851
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Hi Diana,

If you can write "hello world" you can change the world.
― Raghu Venkatesh
"Goodbye world" doesn't work.

Love ya,
Understanding optics is child's play compared to understanding child's play.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts." Richard Feynman
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Old Thursday 14th June 2018, 22:09   #852
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Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
@ jape, Nohatch, JS Bach et al. I think we have all got a bit too antagonistic at times. I often feel harassed, pressed for time, and inadequate when it comes to defending my side of the argument; there are others who could do it better, but they are not here. So perhaps this debate has not solved anything. We have not changed each others' minds, certainly not yet, but I still think it is an issue worth raising, and I would very much like to see it debated in the public arena. It disturbs me greatly that this is not happening, and won't happen, and it says the wrong things about our society that there should be no debate about a technology that is taking over our lives and our societies. By 2020, 5G will be in. Everywhere. Whether we like it or not, whether it's dangerous or not. Period.

Perhaps this is an example of what jape calls "intuitive reasoning" but I see patterns emerging that I find deeply disturbing. Politically and economically, the world is in a very dangerous place right now. And I see 5G sitting in the middle of it, like a spider in its web. We don't have a free press anymore--the mainstream media outlets are all owned by the same few people. We don't have economies anymore; we have monetary policy, which again is run by a very few people. Economically and politically we are repeating patterns the like of which we saw before the first and second world wars. And on top of that we are about to create a sort of Big Brother world where everybody, and everything everybody does, can be tracked, monitored, and analyzed to death. When it's all online, they can cut you off at the press of a button. You won't exist. They can erase your bank account, your degrees, your history, your very identity. It will not be about "connectivity"; it will be about control. And it will be total. And nobody is seeing the whole picture.

If you have time I'd like you to look at an article by John Ward, a retired PR consultant turned blogger. He presents a very bleak view of what might happen if we have another economic crash (which many people feel is coming, and which could be very bad indeed). I want you to add 5G to to the picture that Ward presents. Imagine 5G as a weapon to be used by governments against their citizens--and the military using 5G weapons like Active Denial System on rioting populations. Who will 5G serve then? Certainly not you or me. Here's the link:

I'd also like you to take a look at an article about how the chemical industry gets toxic chemicals approved--stuff like neonicotinoids. That's at
The point I am making here is that I have been told, repeatedly, by scientists who work on EMR, that exactly the same thing is happening when it comes to wireless technologies. You may say you refuse to believe it, but before you do, remember that companies associated with wireless technologies are hugely rich and hugely powerful. They aren't just guiding the narrative; they are writing it, scripting it and selling it. It's the biggest PR con job in human history.

I don't know if I can begin to communicate the depth of my unease about all this. Yes, I do believe that EMR has harmful biological effects. But I also think there is a lot more wrong with wireless technologies than that, and that 5G is going to be really, really bad idea in other ways as well. So just think about that. Try to look past the PR about the bright connected future and think about the other implications. Then ask yourself if you're really so keen to jump on the 5G bandwagon.

I have to run. Thanks for the compliments on my art--always welcome. The one you like, Joost, is one one my own favorites--we might get along at that. However, I can't recommend Samos for a holiday. In addition to very few birds and dying trees we now also have TB in the community. I don't think it's very safe here.
Ah, I knew that your dissatisfaction with the modern world ran deeper than “just” EMR but didn’t realize it ran quite that deep. I share some of your misgivings, particularly with the rise of neo-fascist movements in Europe and the States (how else to describe “Trumpism”, a curse on his name!) not to mention the increasing importance of authoritarian governments (China) elsewhere on the world stage. That said, as has been pointed out numerous times, all that can be reasonably said about attempts to predict the general course of human history is that they invariably miss the mark. The coldest of cold comfort I know, particularly since some things are all too certain, among which is the fate of non-human life. I find it inconceivable that wild nature won’t take terrific hits in coming decades however the politics play out. Sigh, and sigh again. ..

Hang in there. And peace. . .it’s out of your control as it is for all of us. . ..
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Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

--Gerard Manley Hopkins

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Old Friday 15th June 2018, 13:02   #853
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@ Chosun Lovely piece, Desiderata. And I do take a large part of every day to walk, swim, and farm. Why live on an island otherwise? I don't own a television or any mobile device. I try to stay away from the madness, but it impinges --I live in Greece, after all, which means economic and political chaos, on an island drowning in refugees and migrants. I disagree that politically and economically the world is in better shape today than it was yesterday. From where I sit, it's all going to hell in a hand-basket. There is also much good. I try to take it as it comes. I want the world to keep its varied abundance, but we are losing it. Therefore I protest.

@ Ed Hello, world.

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Old Friday 15th June 2018, 13:19   #854
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Months ago when I first came on Birdforum I tried to find out if anyone was noticing the same phenomena as I was--disappearing birds and insects, a loss of diversity. Pretty much all of you (not everyone) told me that you hadn't noticed anything particularly wrong: things were pretty normal. So I wondered if it was just me, or just Greece where things were disappearing.

Over time, I found and posted various pieces showing the people were noticing a fall in bird and insect numbers. Yesterday I found this: "Chris Packham Warns an'Ecological Apocalypse' Looms for Great Britain." That's at
The birds aren't there any more, he says. Nor the insects, nor the flowers. The article doesn't say what Packham attributes these declines to--only that he's very upset about them.

It is a dreadful thing to lose biodiversity--so fast and so markedly. I am glad someone else has noticed that everything is not "just fine". That's a start. You all know I believe that EMR plays a role in this, because that is what I've observed. It will be interesting to see how this develops.
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Old Friday 15th June 2018, 14:38   #855
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that was reported in the Conservation section last Tuesday, others have noticed and posted about the loss of birds, snowyowl two weeks ago for example. recently someone else remarked on IOT devices in countryside affecting birds.

there are a number of concerned people, but it doesn't get much commentary.

people are aware of ecological disaster, observe and report, it is partly just that you have fought your corner harder and longer and aroused more opposition ...!

the campaign for life has many facets and even martyrs. look up greenham common on wikipedia.
you are not alone PH.

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Old Friday 15th June 2018, 18:02   #856
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Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
@ Chosun Lovely piece, Desiderata.....
I'm really glad you like the "Desiderata" Diana .... it's a goodun, and one to refer to often

I sympathize with your inundation and over exploitation plight .... my people are no strangers to invasion and the destruction it brought .....

There is a thread already existing for the "Ecological Apocalypse" article:

It will be interesting to see whether research can pinpoint the variables and quanta involved. I think it is very difficult to separate out the multiple causes of ecological impacts we see (I look to Ed as the statistical and experimental design guru).
My money would be on the Web of life being most affected by:
1. Vegetation/structure loss, wetland, riparian and old growth loss and associated hydrological functioning degradation, soil loss and terminal erosion, and land use changes, desertification cycle, and urbanisation
2. Chemical impacts (mostly via industrial agriculture, accelerating under GMO)
3. Other

You might also find this v - e - r - y interesting - nay, fascinating! (both for the cutting edge knowledge and the personal story /journey):

Smile and stay positive :)


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Old Yesterday, 12:43   #857
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@ Chosun I had a look at your thread and, while I didn't have time to read everything, I can promise you that I will. We are always looking for ways to minimize water loss/evaporation on our land; we can use piped water but that is expensive for crops and we collect rainwater--unfortunately the huge old deposit is at the bottom of the land and we have to do a lot of manual water-hauling. Sometimes I feel a bit like the characters in "The Yearling" if you have ever read it. I feel there must be better ways to farm and use land than people do--the Greeks always want to see the land "clean" which means mowing down, rototilling, ploughing up and sometimes spraying every last weed. I like weeds--they are actually flowers--except for choking vines that one has to remove before they strangle everything. And of course you have to keep a balance--fennel plants will take over a terrace in no time and they have long, strong roots which mean they are a devil to remove. On the other hand, the swallowtail caterpillars live on them... Anyway this material looks very interesting and I will read it and hopefully learn some things we can try out.

I share your concern about waterways. The EU has a scheme to link major rivers with the Med and the Black seas, which will be an ecological nightmare. They want to run a canal through northern Greece to link the Danube with the Med. It will run through Lake Doirani on the Greek-FYROM border (protected area, part of Kerkini) and down through the Axios Delta (protected area, major bird area). I have not seen any protests--I'd have expected a lot of screaming from the various NGOs but they haven't said a word that I've noticed. It makes me so angry!

I don't disagree with the problems you list above except that I would put EMR in place of 3/Other. I think it's more important than people realize but how to rate 1,2 and 3 in order of importance? I'd put them all at 1, tied for first place. The thing about trees, for instance, is that we need them to absorb carbon. We will always produce carbon, and getting rid of carbon-producing technologies (cars, for instance) may be less important than insuring we have lots of trees to absorb it. Every infrastructure project I've ever seen gobbles trees, and if the people who are saying that 5G will hugely increase the chance of major forest fires and penetrate forest canopy (thereby killing trees) are right, I don't think the world can afford to take that risk. (See my post below).
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Old Yesterday, 13:21   #858
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The War on Trees

Wireless technologies and trees don't, it seems, mix. You can have one or the other, but not both--so take your pick.

This at least is the message from the Telegraph and the Sun, both of which have published articles recently complaining that trees get in the way of wireless signals:

Obviously, trees are going to interfere with 5G. The solution? Simple. Cut them down. This is what they are doing in Sheffield, where some 35,000 mature trees are scheduled for the chop. I've seen several articles about this, and 5G is never mentioned--but apparently the link with 5G is being much discussed on Facebook. I'm not on FB, but if anyone is, you can look this up. Apparently Chris Packham went up there and had a fit--well done to him!

The dangers of EMR aside, I don't know how anyone can countenance getting rid of trees to install 5G. Even if I didn't believe 5G was going to be incredibly harmful, even if I thought 5G was the best invention ever, I would not want to sacrifice trees to have it. And I can't believe the Telegraph and the Sun published those articles, especially the Telegraph, shortly after publishing an article saying that wireless technologies pose a "credible threat" to nature. The world is going mad. Really mad. Who in his right mind would rather have a cell tower or a small cell outside of his house than a tree?

At the Eklipse conference, I met a number of scientists who are very concerned about the effects of wireless on trees. I have, at different times, posted various studies about the effects of EMR on trees. I've just attached another, which looks at wave-scattering patterns of EMR signals in forests. It's complicated and highly technical, and it's not looking at whether EMR will be good or bad for trees, but only at the physics of wave-scattering. As the study notes, the telecoms companies are looking at this too. They want to make sure their signals get everywhere they send them. Given the Sun and Telegraph articles, and the recent rash of tree-cutting in Sheffield, is it fair to say that they have concluded trees are an impediment?

The War on Trees has begun. I don't think the trees are going to win unless a lot of people sign up to fight on their side. Is 5G really worth the sacrifice?

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