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Leica Is The Best Forget The Rest! (1 Viewer)

Very sad.
But very true.

T

For me, the latest line of Leica and Zeiss, that is true.

My own optical addiction spans microscopic through astronomic.

I have a small stable of binoculars of various brands. My L and Z are BA, and Classics, respectively. For me, the latest models from both brands are to pricey. I am not in anyway saying they are not "worth" it. But for me, at those prices, they would also hae to answer my cell phone for me, and hand me a snack in the field when i am getting a bit peckish ;)

That said, I find the build quality on Leica products generally, and their binoculars in particular, to be the best.
To the eye in use, I favor the Zeiss.
I have handled and looked through both of the current top lines of both brands, but am not comparing them, just based on that limited basis. My comment is based on their previous high end ones.

But, bird for bird, under daylight conditions and if its not raining, i grab the Nikon 8x32 SE.
 
That said, I find the build quality on Leica products generally, and their binoculars in particular, to be the best.
To the eye in use, I favor the Zeiss.

Jay,

I would generally agree with your comment but I wonder if the superiority of Leica's build quality, especially in the BA's and BN's, may be an illusion. They are heavy and bulky but are those binoculars really tougher than the newest Zeiss glasses? Again, the Leica's reputation for reliability may be the result of not updating the mechanical design for so long, whereas Zeiss has had two new lines, Victory I and II, in the past six years, with the likelihood of teething problems.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :brains:
 
Jay,

I would generally agree with your comment but I wonder if the superiority of Leica's build quality, especially in the BA's and BN's, may be an illusion.

Arthur Pinewood :brains:


Hello Arthur!
Yes, indeed. It seems to be exactly that - an illusion.
Our largest and best-reputed consumer organization had a comparative test last year.
It can be downloaded from here:

http://www.leica-camera.de/service/...for_nature_observation/ultravid_32/index.html

They tested durability (Haltbarkeit) thoroughly, for example several cycles of heating to 85 deg C, applying moist heat, etc. (full details are given at the end of the article).

Relevant results for durability here are:
Leica Ultravid 8x32: 1,3
Zeiss Victory 10x42FL: 1,1.

The take home message here (as I extracted from the numbers):
They are very close to each other, and there is nothing much to worry about.

Given the fact that the fiber-reinforced polymers that Zeiss uses are equally strong but lighter than metal alloys, this might even speak in favour of the modern materials.

Some people may have felt equally apprehended when the first motor cars were made from metal rather than the time-proven wood of the stage-coaches.

Made from composite materials himself,
Tom
 
I agree with Arthur and Tom. I find build quality to be impossible to evaluate in any meaningful way simply by handling a binocular. A product designer with a shrewd eye toward marketing will certainly know how to massage the consumer with those little cosmetic and tactile touches that suggest Quality and Luxury. A few bits of well finished metal on the exterior, nicely textured rubber armoring and a little extra heft and, voila!, we now have a binocular that appears to be beautifully built "like a tank". Composite materials are at a disadvantage, even if they are superior to metal in thermal stability and resistance to deformation, because they are too light and "plasticy feeling". I'm not inclined to make any judgements about which expensive binoculars are the most durable because I simply can't tell from looking at them. What we consumers need is technically informed lab and field testing for build quality and durability, but unfortunately we don't see much of that.
 
Tom,

I always enjoy being proven right!

In English, the Leica binoculars are often described as "built like a brick," but who wants to carry a brick?

I find the view through the FL's to be superior to any other roof prism binocular, With little difference in Haltbarkeit, personal preferences seem to rule at the Leica and Zeiss price level.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :scribe:
 
An addendum:

Really good engineering design is not just a matter of making something strong but making it strong and light; while smaller may be better than bigger. To put it in the word of Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe: "less is more."

Happy bird watching,
Arthur
 
What we consumers need is technically informed lab and field testing for build quality and durability, but unfortunately we don't see much of that.

Henry,

Well put! I would like to see a crash test of high-end binoculars; fire them with a canon-like device ( for instance the machine they use to fire tennisballs in training sessions ) into a brick wall, from various distances, and with various force.

Ouch!

I think that one well-sustained experiment would once and for all prove which bin comes out of the test best.
Or most unharmed, and still useable, would be a better paraphrase...

If I ever can get my hands on a million bucks I'd do the test myself. I'm not going to throw my FL's into a brick wall.

Greetings, Ronald
 
A product designer with a shrewd eye toward marketing will certainly know how to massage the consumer with those little cosmetic and tactile touches that suggest Quality and Luxury.

Putting the issue of actual durability aside, sure I wish Zeiss would put a bit more effort into those "little cosmetic and tactile touches." To me, the build of the Leica, Swarovski, Nikon LX and Zeiss Classic are all much more beautiful to the eye and feel much better in the hand than the Zeiss Night Owl/Design Selection, Victory, and now Victory FL lines. Actually, some of the Night Owl/Design Selection models were beautiful to look at (and through), so maybe my gripe is really with the Victory lines. The Zeiss FL look and feel clunky to me; they look and feel like a bunch of glued-together plastic bits. I don't think that the use of composites/plastic is the problem or an insurmountable handicap. I've got plenty of other equipment made of composites (bicycle components, fishing tackle, camera gear) that look and feel great--smooth, seamless, solid, integrated.
--AP
 
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I agree with Arthur and Tom. I find build quality to be impossible to evaluate in any meaningful way simply by handling a binocular.

How true. But many people trust their feelings, and so it becomes an issue. And reliable, independent tests are scarce.

A product designer with a shrewd eye toward marketing will certainly know how to massage the consumer with those little cosmetic and tactile touches that suggest Quality and Luxury. A few bits of well finished metal on the exterior, nicely textured rubber armoring and a little extra heft and, voila!,

Except for those sober Zeiss designers, it seems.
I admit that their current products are uglier than those of their immediate competitors. At the same time I have come to the conclusion after long rounds of comparing, that optically they have the edge. At this moment in technological history and by what may well be a small margin, but their image to me looks best.
And if I put the binos to my eyes, who cares what they look like.
Looking through beats looking at.


I agree with Arthur and Tom. I find build quality to be impossible to evaluate in any meaningful way simply by handling a binocular. A product designer with a shrewd eye toward marketing will certainly know how to massage the consumer with those little cosmetic and tactile touches that suggest Quality and Luxury. A few bits of well finished metal on the exterior, nicely textured rubber armoring and a little extra heft and, voila!, we now have a binocular that appears to be beautifully built "like a tank". Composite materials are at a disadvantage, even if they are superior to metal in thermal stability and resistance to deformation, because they are too light and "plasticy feeling". I'm not inclined to make any judgements about which expensive binoculars are the most durable because I simply can't tell from looking at them. What we consumers need is technically informed lab and field testing for build quality and durability, but unfortunately we don't see much of that.


Composite materials are at a disadvantage, even if they are superior to metal in thermal stability and resistance to deformation, because they are too light and "plasticy feeling".

I wonder if future generations might frown upon our "metal- and leather age" apprehension because they are more used to others materials and have learned to appreciate their virtues to a larger degree that the forces of tradition allow us to.



What we consumers need is technically informed lab and field testing for build quality and durability, but unfortunately we don't see much of that.

I FULLY AGREE WITH THAT!

At the same I was shocked by the number of people who actually reject those data even if they are available.
I was frequently bashed when I referred to the above mentioned test which is the only one I know that employed reproducible ISO test protocols.
The data were sometimes dismissed as being "irrelevant", the engineers were accused of "knowing next to nothing about how to REALLY evaluate" binoculars, and much more trust was granted to "holy men", i.e. anonymous people "who know best".
I was once beaten out of an astronomy website just because a questioned the "Wisdom" of such a holy man by pointing out that we didn't know anything about the health status of this guru (he might be 80 years old and half blind, or just a joker who takes other for a ride).
My attempts to induce some critical thinking in those people failed completely.


So I sincerely wished these wise words

What we consumers need is technically informed lab and field testing for build quality and durability, but unfortunately we don't see much of that.

will really spread!

Tom
 
Tom,
I always enjoy being proven right!

In English, the Leica binoculars are often described as "built like a brick," but who wants to carry a brick?

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :scribe:

Hello Arthur!
How does it feel .... to be proven right?
I can't remember it ever happened to me.

I have variously encountered the term "teutonic tank" with respect to Leicas.
Couldn't care less .... I don't even have a driving licence for that sort of vehicle.

Besides: The Trinovids LOOK like a tank. In my eyes they were the ugliest binos around. None of the much bashed Zeiss's ever put me off that much.
I tend to think that elegance arrived only with the Ultravids.


Tom,

I find the view through the FL's to be superior to any other roof prism binocular,
With little difference in Haltbarkeit, personal preferences seem to rule at the Leica and Zeiss price level.
Happy bird watching,
Arthur :scribe:

I'd subscribe to both statements without hesitation.

Tom
 
Hi,

given the experience I made with glasses frames made of titanium I would think the titanium axis of the Leica Ultravids is an advantage in respect of durability. I know of experiences from people working in a birding observatorium in the south of Germany. They work with Leica, Swarovski and Zeiss bins. The weak point of the Swaros are the eyecups that frequently get damaged and have to be exchanged. Zeiss Victory bins suffer from time to time by loose parts of the armoring. The Leicas Trinovids as well as Ultravids seem to have less problems when it comes to durability.

Steve
 
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Hi,

given the experience I made with glasses frames made of titanium I would think the titanium axis of the Leica Ultravids is an advantage in respect of durability. I know of experiences from people working in a birding observatorium in the south of Germany. They work with Leica, Swarovski and Zeiss bins. The weak point of the Swaros are the eyecups that frequently get damaged and have to be exchanged. Zeiss Victory bins suffer from time to time by loose parts of the armoring. The Leicas Trinovids as well as Ultravids seem to have less problems when it comes to durability.

Steve


Maybe we should discriminate
- cosmetic durability (as regards armouring, etc.)
and
- true durability of the technical system.

The Zeiss armouring problem is annoying but it does not invalidate the true virtues of those gadgets.

With respect to titanium ....
I have got 30+ years old Porro binoculars with "ordinary" steel axes only, and there is no problem whatsoever.
Titanium may well be a marketing gimmick (sounds good: "the stuff that space technology uses for rockets", ...).

Tom
 
Maybe we should discriminate
- cosmetic durability (as regards armouring, etc.)
and
- true durability of the technical system.

The Zeiss armouring problem is annoying but it does not invalidate the true virtues of those gadgets.

With respect to titanium ....
I have got 30+ years old Porro binoculars with "ordinary" steel axes only, and there is no problem whatsoever.
Titanium may well be a marketing gimmick (sounds good: "the stuff that space technology uses for rockets", ...).

Tom

Well,

the material properties of titanium are common knowledge in materials science. I think when it comes to marketing all companies behave quite similar, though.

Thomas, since you are such a fan of Zeiss and that particular Stiftung Warentest report: how do you explain that the Leica 8x32 Ultravid was considered to have the best optics of the whole test followed by the Swarovski SLC in the 10x42 range which was better in several optical properties (resolution power, binocular adjustment, straylight prevention) than the Zeiss Victory? And why were even the optics of the Zeiss Conquest better than those of the Zeiss Victory FL?

Steve
 
Well,
Thomas, since you are such a fan of Zeiss and that particular Stiftung Warentest report: how do you explain that the Leica 8x32 Ultravid was considered to have the best optics of the whole test followed by the Swarovski SLC in the 10x42 range which was better in several optical properties (resolution power, binocular adjustment, straylight prevention) than the Zeiss Victory? And why were even the optics of the Zeiss Conquest better than those of the Zeiss Victory FL?

Steve


Zeiss must explain it, not me!

I do not dispute the measurements (as many fools do).

How do you explain that many people still cherish Minox although they fail time and time again?

Obviously technical specifications that are the foundations of laboratory measurements are tigther than and exceed human visual acuity.

The SW is the best around.
Some hunting magazines make actual measurement (or say so) but never give data or protocols.
 
I respectfully submit that we need another Binocular Forum. To wit: BINOCULARS COSTING UPWARDS OF $1000.00. Owners of them can post there and argue about their binocular's merits to their heart's content.
Cordially,
Bob
 
I personally find the FL's to be elegant and extremely well executed. I find the styling well as the balance and handling to be exceptional. I wouldn't change a thing.

Each of us will view each make/model of bins differently.
 
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I personally find the FL's to be elegant and extremely well executed. I find the styling well as the balance and handling to be exceptional. I wouldn't change a thing.

Each of us will view each make/model of bins differently.

I'd have to agree with that also. My FL has been very nice to use in the field and the ergonomic equal of my EL. I find that I grip the ELs from the side and grab the FLs from the bottom more...which is sometimes more comfortable.

As for the title of this thread goes, good luck convincing people of your blanket sweep comment. All the top glass is outstanding including my 3 peices of Leica optical equipment. I've never come around to liking the Ultravid because of the focus mechansim lottery. Every one that I've tried in the store is stiff. I've now seen the clear plastic of the focus knob windows of 3 different ultravid demos cracking from the center outwards. Leica have flaws and problems just as the others do. I don't have sales figures and numbers, but I'm fairly sure that Swarovski stomps them in sales figures also, cetainly in the States anyhow.
 
Dennis, I'd bet the farm I once read a post of yours defending the Zeiss as the greatest ever. When you change your mind you change it every bit heart and soul!
 
That was before I had a pair of Leica's. I have now had all the big names including Swarovski EL, Nikon LXL, Zeiss FL and Tasco.(JUST KIDDING ON THAT LAST ONE!) and in my opinion I think Leica is the best!

Dennis
 
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