Are bird numbers falling in Greece? (1 Viewer)

Purple Heron · Jul 24, 2017

I would very much like to know if other people besides myself are noticing fewer birds in the past year or two. I live on Samos, which became 4G a coule of years ago, and all the birds near the main town of Vathi started to literally vanish. I went on a birding trip to the north of Greece this past spring and found very few birds compared to other years. I have written a detailed account of this which I have posted in the Conservation thread.

Much of Greece has become 4G in the past 2 years--all the main towns and cities, many provincial towns, many of the islands and many coastal areas. I think this is seriously affecting bird numbers. Do you live in a 4G area? Are you seeing a decline in bird populations?

Richard Prior · Jul 24, 2017

Purple Heron said:
Much of Greece has become 4G in the past 2 years--all the main towns and cities, many provincial towns, many of the islands and many coastal areas. I think this is seriously affecting bird numbers. Do you live in a 4G area? Are you seeing a decline in bird populations?

Why do you think this? Bird populations are no doubt declining in Greece, as in the rest of Europe, the reasons are many (urbanisation, intensive agriculture, hunting, drought in Sahel etc etc), but 4G??

Purple Heron · Jul 25, 2017

Why do I think this? -- reply

If you have the time, read my trip report (attached here). On Samos where I live, none of the other conditions you mention applies--and yes, I did consider them before I started researching the effects of wireless communications. I can see that conditions elsewhere (drought, pesticides etc.) would affect migrating birds, but not resident species where those conditions are not present.

On Samos, I am not the only person to have noticed that, since the introduction of Wi-Fi in all the cafes, main squareas and play areas, virtually all the sparrows in town have vanished. It is also common knowledge that the mountain where the main cell towers are located has lost all its birds--and there were many. Bird numbers were normal until 4G was introduced, and then we started to see a decline. It didn't happen overnight, but gradually, and more parts of the island are being affected as new cell towers go up in other locations.

Please read the attached trip report and I think you will understand why I think 4G is affecting bird populations. Then we can discuss it further if you like.

Richard Prior · Jul 25, 2017

Thank you Diana, you clearly have put a lot of work in to produce your report. Like you, I am neither a scientist nor an expert in EMR so I won't presume to add to my previous statement regarding the various proven factors contributing to declines in bird populations, nor do I feel qualified to make assumptions about the effect of 4G, studies would have to be made in various countries to assess whether your belief in the damage it causes is correct or not.
One point, it's unfair to say that men are only interested in big birds and therefore not noticing declines in songbirds etc, my favourite species is Long-tailed Tit, not many come smaller than that in Europe

MTem · Jul 25, 2017

Like Richard I can only commend the extensive observations in your memo, and like him I'm no expert on ERM, so the following are the comments of a scientist/engineer and general naturalist.
First it seems more extensive statistically significant data on bird population declines over the period concerned - pre 4G and post - are required. Random site visit reports will convince no one I'm sure.
Second, I think the biggest challenge is to look at all the things that have changed relevant to the areas and their avian populations before deciding it is ERM that is the cause, because if for no other reason you need to address the question "if 4G ERM is the cause why is this effect on bird population not being seen across all the areas where it is being introduced?". I live in SE England just south of London, and I'd guess that 4G signal strength is just as strong here as in the areas you mention, yet there is no suggestion from any quarter that I'm familiar with that similar trends are being seen here. At least none other than those impacting migrant birds mentioned above by Richard, and various avian diseases like the respiratory disease impacting Greenfinches recently. Some downward trends like House Sparrows seem to be reversing for example. The extensive BTO garden birdwatch data shows a mixture of upward and downward trends for resident birds over the relevant period for example. So why would 'Greek' 4G cause such a drastic decline if 'U.K.' 4G doesn't?

So for you concern to gain traction amongst any Government body I think you need more data and more rigorous causal analysis, not more anecdotes and inferential assumptions.

Have you shared your concerns with Birdlife International for example. Others might be able to suggest similar international bodies with access to sufficient breadth and depth of population trends, and be able to see if there is any international potential link to ERM and 4G in particular.

I am not seeking to rubbish or downplay your concern, merely to suggest that in a world now full of conspiracy theories and assertion based 'science', I think you will meet scepticism until you can broaden and validate your database and demonstrate fuller deductive reasoning. There may indeed be a real drastic decline in bird populations in the areas you visit, and also an insidious cause - but leaping to the conclusion it's 4G is premature because you have not considered all potential causes, nor have you explained why 4G is having this impact in these areas, but seemingly not elsewhere.

Mick

Purple Heron · Jul 26, 2017

To Mick:

I am trying to get more data. I do know that my own observations alone are not enough--though what I have seen on Samos is truly alarming, and this prompted the trip north. I did write to Birdlife, RSPB and other birding organizations, in some cases several times, but no one replied. I also looked at the garden birdwatch data but there are many factors to be considered and the way the data is broken down is not helpful. I do know that most of England is still 3G (I've looked at maps of wireless distribution and the Telegraph moans about it all the time).

On Samos, I think it is possible to exclude other factors besides wireless/EMR as the cause for bird population declines. I have lived here a long time and know the area extremely well. So I can rule out such things as pesticide use, extreme climate variation, habitat change etc. for the area under discussion. A lot of the birds that have disappeared are resident, so are not affected by problems in the places they migrate from/to. And I have to say I didn't see significant changes in northern Greece since our last trip (except cell towers) though I do realise I'm on less firm ground here.

Another thing I have noticed is that not all birds disappear at the same rate. And of course they don't all suddenly vanish at once--it took a couple of years before I realised how very much had disappeared, because I kept seeing fewer and fewer birds but thinking I was just having a bad day, or whatever. It is a lot harder to spot a lack of something than the presence of something. But I do think there are certain trends here: small birds disappear first, but some species seem more vulnerable than others. Tits, for instance, hang on longer than warblers or chaffinches--I have no idea why, but they do--especially great tits, and blackbirds. The crow family seems especially resilient. We have more jays and crows now than we did, and the crows are becoming real pests in some areas, where they have replaced other bird populations.

So--there is a lot I don't know, but I do have reasons for concluding that EMR is affecting bird populations in Greece. I don't think I'm a conspiracy theorist but I know there is an awful lot of money tied up in telecommunications and the whole of future development, just about, seems to depend on wireless networks--from smart appliances to the Internet of Things, driverless cars and so on. So nobody is going to be very happy if it turns out that wireless technology is harmful to people, birds, whatever. And birds are pretty far down anybody's list: most people don't notice birds.

Am I leaping to conclusions? Let me put it this way. I'm very alarmed, and the technology is proceeding a lot faster than any scientist can prove it is or isn't dangerous. The precautionary principle would indicate that we need to know for sure before we keep upgrading wireless networks, but that is not what is happening. A lot of researchers believe that wireless IS dangerous. So do a great many doctors. Yet we've gone and installed 4G and before long we're going to upgrade to 5G--by 2020, by some estimates. I think this is premature. You can't say "More research needs to be done" and then not allow time for it to be done. That can lead to immense and irreversible damage, and that's why I'm so worried.

I am sharing my concerns because I am so worried. I want people to think about this. Some people will undoubtedly dismiss it out of hand. Some, I hope, won't, and will do their own research and observations. I hope they will share them with me.

Hauksen · Aug 2, 2017

Hi,

Purple Heron said:
So--there is a lot I don't know, but I do have reasons for concluding that EMR is affecting bird populations in Greece.

For analysis, it might be useful to look at the way radio signal strength decreases with distance. Radio waves are undetectable to natural human senses, but they have a lot of common with sound signals, which we understand well due to our everyday experience.

A radio tower can be compared to a bell tower: The signal strength is very great directly at the source. Imagine being on a church tower when the bell rings! It is still very impressive nearby (such as standing in front of the church), loud enough to interfere with other signals (such as speech, or musik) two or three streets off, but the farther away you are, the fainter the signal becomes - though it can be heard from a very long distance away if there are no interfering signals (such as traffic noise).

So if you're looking at a situation where there is a decrease of birds uniformly all over a large area, I would think that it's not necessarily what one would expect from localized sources. It would seem more likely that where radio waves are a factor, you would see a clear impact right around the radio tower, only a much weaker impact a certain distance away from it, and next to nothing a fair distance off.

(As far as humans are concerned, radar technicians in the past have undoubtly suffered from exposure to radio waves. They were often doing their job right next to the broadcasting radio antenna, which usually was quite powerful and featured a well-focused beam. Still, the same radars have covered much of the surface of the earth and a lot of sky for decades, and I don't think there is any suspicion they might be harmful out of a very short radius around the antenna.)

Comparing the situation you describe for Greece to the one we are facing in Germany, we also have a quite dramatic reduction of bird populations for many species, even the very common ones. Additionally, insect life is similarly affected. I think it's pretty clear at least for Germany, that the main driving factors behind this are habitat destruction, mostly due to intensifying land use for food production (and in the recent years, energy plants), coupled with an increase in the use of herbicides and insectides, which impacts the availability of food for many bird species.

I would imagine the situation in Greece is similar in many respects, and as usual with complex problems with multiple root-causes, analysis can be very difficult. However, I wouldn't necessarily consider the radio towers to be a major contributing factor if there is no evidence of a strong localized impact in the vicinity of the towers.

Just in the hope that the "bell tower" example might prove useful to you, and with the best wishes for your conservation efforts in Greece!

Regards,

Henning

Jos Stratford · Aug 2, 2017

Would it not be helpful to keep this on a single thread rather than start several threads on the same topic?

I replied on one of your other threads about bird numbers here in Lithuania (a country with the best 4G coverage in Europe) - numbers are not crashing in the way you notice, and following your request, seems same with sparrow numbers. Could you offer a possible reason why 4G in Greece should be so damaging, yet not here?

Purple Heron · Aug 7, 2017

To Hauksen--
I think creating an situation where the man-made electromagnetic radiation is millions of times more powerful than the earth's natural magnetic field IS habitat destruction. Also you have to realize that towers are placed so that when you move out of one area you are into another area of signal--they triangulate. It's probably easier in Greece to find areas of no signal (so many mountains) although it is getting harder as more towers go up. But from what I have seen, birds definitely prefer these areas. The trouble is that birds are territorial, and in some cases the adult birds have a fairly small range--a mile or two. So they may not be able to escape from cell tower signals. It's easy to go on about complex problems and many factors but frankly, that is a cop-out. There are plenty of peer-reviewed studies documenting the damage EMF does to birds. I think the real problem is that so many people are addicted to wireless technology that they don't want to give it up even if it does kill all the birds. Take your pick--birds or your smartphone.

Purple Heron · Aug 7, 2017

To Jos,
I am grateful for the information your have provided. However, as you said yourself, you don't have a picture of what things were like before 4G. So it's hard to arrive at conclusions without a basis of comparison. I have seen what happens when 3G areas become 4G, and in some cases (not all) can exclude other factors. I also know that the US Fish and Wildlife Service has been concerned about radiation from cell towers for some time. Check this out: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/us_doi_comments.pdf
Here's a quote from it--"The second significant issue associated with communications towers involves impacts from non-ionizing electromagnetic radiaition. emitted by these structures...study results have documented nest and site abandonment, plumage deterioration, locomotion problems, reduced survivorship, and death...Nesting migratory birdsand their offspring have apparently been affected by the radiation from cellular phone towers in the 900 and 1800 MHz ranges...:
Tht's fiom the US Department of Information. If they are taking it seriously, why aren't birding organizations?

Jos Stratford · Aug 7, 2017

Purple Heron said:
I am grateful for the information your have provided. However, as you said yourself, you don't have a picture of what things were like before 4G. So it's hard to arrive at conclusions without a basis of comparison.

I do not recall saying I did not have an idea of what things were like before 4G in Lithuania - my observations and my feeding stations pre-date the arrival of 4G by more than ten years and for the species I mentioned at the sites I observe, I can say there has been no decline.

You asked specifically about Tree Sparrows - I also maintain a feeding station at my home near Vilnius (ie. not the locality I provided the earlier data) and for this I have figures from the winter of 1999/2000. This is not very far from a 4G tower, as is everywhere in Lithuania (remember this country has the best 4G coverage in Europe, 3rd best in the world).

Tree Sparrows have actually shown a sustained increase at this site - winter total in 1999/2000 was 41 birds, the number similar the next couple of winters too. This pre-dated 4G. Numbers thereafter, running through and beyond the period that 4G arrived (from 2010), have gradually increased year-on-year to reach an average winter number of about 80, even higher some winters.

Great Tits, with some annual variation, have been largely stable - 316 birds in winter 1999/2000, basically the same today. Same picture with Blue Tits, though even greater variation year to year, but 86 in 1999/2000, similar average wintering numbers today.

I am certainly not saying 4G is not having negative effects in Greece or indeed anywhere else, but I would be interested why populations here do not seem to be crashing in the manner you report.

Hauksen · Aug 7, 2017

Hi Diana,

Purple Heron said:
>Also you have to realize that towers are placed so that when you move out of one area you are into another area of signal--they triangulate.

For anyone interested in the potential dangers of electromagnetic radiation, this is a very good starting point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law#Light_and_other_electromagnetic_radiation

Your paper mentioned that at Lake Kerkini, a reduction of signal strength to 85% made a big difference to birdlife.

I found it quite interesting to ponder that statement in the light of the inverse square law ...

Regards,

Henning

Purple Heron · Aug 8, 2017

To Jos--
I think there are patterns that occur when 4G comes in, and which I do not fully understand. I don't know why, but tits, especially great tits, seem to hang around longer in 4G even when other birds disappear. Other people have noticed this as well. Warbler and finches, on the other hand, are among the first birds to go. I notice that you mostly mention tits among the birds you have--what about warblers and finches, other small birds? I don't know if you get chaffinches in Lithuania, but if you do you might have noticed a decline there. Here on Samos they have all disappeared since we got 4G, and though they were very common birds, I haven't seen a single one here for about a year. By the same token, other birds like crows, jays and gulls have multiplied since 4G came in, and this is a sure sign of imbalance in the ecosystem. I was speaking yesterday to someone at HOS (the Greek birding society) and he was very worried by what I told him about Samos.
Part of the problem for us is that Turkish 4G signals are much stronger than European signals, according to Greek Telecoms (OTE). But even if this is the case, why are we having disappearances in areas where the Turkish signal doesn't reach? And if it is the case that Turkish signals being stronger causes falling bird populations, we should be very worried about 5G, which will operate in Terahertz.
About tree sparrows--I read in Birdlife News that Hong Kong (which surely has a lot of wireless) has suddenly got lots of tree sparrows, which it didn't have before. It is possible that tree sparrows, like tits, have more resistance in some way. I just don't know, but I think there is reason for concern. I don't think data like the sort I am seeking have been looked at before--I think there are patterns, but I don't know how to account for them. By the way, have you seen an increase in crows (and other members of that family) in Lithuania?

Purple Heron · Aug 8, 2017

Hauksen said:
Your paper mentioned that at Lake Kerkini, a reduction of signal strength to 85% made a big difference to birdlife.

Hi, Henning.
I am sure that inverse square law is the reason we now have so very many cell towers all over the place, to ensure that signal strength is not weakened or lost.

I don't see how that makes a difference to Kerkini, which has a great many new cell towers. Maybe even the fact that they have turned down the power isn't making much difference, since Kerkini only has more birds than other places in the comparative sense. Certainly Kerkini itself had a lot more birds in other years when they had fewer cell towers. Also, it may be that what is saving Kerkini (for now) is that they are still at 3G. If/when they go to 4G, reduced signal strength may not do a lot of good.

Jos Stratford · Aug 8, 2017

Purple Heron said:
I don't know why, but tits, especially great tits, seem to hang around longer in 4G even when other birds disappear. Other people have noticed this as well. Warbler and finches, on the other hand, are among the first birds to go. I notice that you mostly mention tits among the birds you have--what about warblers and finches, other small birds? I don't know if you get chaffinches in Lithuania, but if you do you might have noticed a decline there.

About tree sparrows--I read in Birdlife News that Hong Kong (which surely has a lot of wireless) has suddenly got lots of tree sparrows, which it didn't have before. It is possible that tree sparrows, like tits, have more resistance in some way. I just don't know, but I think there is reason for concern. I don't think data like the sort I am seeking have been looked at before--I think there are patterns, but I don't know how to account for them. By the way, have you seen an increase in crows (and other members of that family) in Lithuania?

I mention the species that I get at my winter feeders for the simple reason I have quantitive long-term numbers - ie ringing totals. Chaffinches, warblers etc do not winter in Lithuania, but are abundant summer visitors. I do not ring in summer, so my observations would only be anecdotal in the same manner as observations so far on Samos. However, I see no overall decline in the bulk of species, there are some declines, eg Spotted Flycatcher (though this is a long-term trend that began long before 4G), Yellow Wagtail (likewise), Whinchat and Corncrake (large scale grass cutting likely cause), etc. Warblers mostly stable, though several species are certainly increasing significantly on my local plot, eg Sedge Warbler (improved habitat), Blackcap, Great White Egret, etc.

Crows pretty much the same as ever - not overly abundant, not uncommon.

My land is sandwiched between two 4G towers with a third nearby, but at this locality at least I would personally struggle to see any impact. Maybe Lithuanian birds are just super tough

Hauksen · Aug 8, 2017

Hi Diana,

Purple Heron said:
I am sure that inverse square law is the reason we now have so very many cell towers all over the place, to ensure that signal strength is not weakened or lost.

Having multiple towers will not result in signal strength being constant over an area, which isn't necessary to ensure a reliable connection anyway.

It's just the same as the bell tower ... if you can count how many times the bell rings, you know the time of the day, regardless of how loud or faint you heard the bell. That's digital communication, and it's basically the same with cellphones.

Purple Heron said:
Maybe even the fact that they have turned down the power isn't making much difference, since Kerkini only has more birds than other places in the comparative sense.

Well, your paper said:

"At Lake Kerkini, scientists at the bird center have fought to reduce electromagnetic radiation levels from the new cell towers, which still operate at 3G. These towers now operate at 85% signal strength. As a result, there are many more birds at Lake Kerkini than almost anywhere else."

That sounds very much like you were suggesting a direct cause-and-effect relationship.

Personally, I believe it would be worth your while to read up on elementary physics because it would help you to make more consistent and convincing arguments to advance your case. However, that's a decision you have to make for yourself.

Regards,

Henning

Purple Heron · Aug 9, 2017

Hi, Jos,
Thanks for the info. Not sure what to make of it as much research has been done to show that EMR disrupts migration and causes a great many other problems for birds. This is what I am seeing here, and I have heard from a ringer in Ireland who is observing a similar situation to mine since local cell towers went 4G a year ago. I have been doing some research and found out that Turkey uses 4.5G and is testing 5G throughout the country--this may easily have an impact on Samos as we are very close, and indeed on all the border regions in Greece where unfortunately several major bird sites are located. It may be a question of signal strengths or bandwidths (I'm not a physicist but they are not all the same)--Turkey's is different from EU standards. Whatever the cause, I am very alarmed. However, if you aren't seeing steep declines as we are here, I am happy for you and the birds. Keep an eye out for system upgrades and see if you notice a difference then. You may be interested in this letter from the US Department of Information regarding wireless and birds: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/us_doi_comments.pdf which shows US Fish and Wildlife have been worried about cell towers and birds for some time.

Purple Heron · Aug 9, 2017

Hi, Henning,
I don't think it really matters if signal strength is not uniform across an area--I think the point is that birds do not do well in an EMR environment. If I change the sentence you object to it will not change my overall conclusion: less signal, more birds; strong signal, fewer birds. I don't need a physics degree to know that Samos is losing all its birds. You are nit-picking.

Did you look at any of the articles I cite at the end of my paper? It may interest you know that the Engels paper, "Anthropogenic magnetic noise disrupts magnetic compass etc." was the cover story on Nature Magazine on 15th May 2015, that more than 500 newspapers reported it, as well as at least 20 radio stations, German and Danish TV, and it was discussed live on BBC World News on the 18th of May 2014. I think you will agree that Nature does not publish speculation.

Jos Stratford · Aug 9, 2017

Purple Heron said:
I have been doing some research and found out that Turkey uses 4.5G and is testing 5G throughout the country. Turkey's is different from EU standards. Keep an eye out for system upgrades and see if you notice a difference then.

4.5G is in operation in Lithuania, as I understand already in all five of the major cities of the country.

Jos Stratford · Aug 9, 2017

Purple Heron said:
I think the point is that birds do not do well in an EMR environment. ... my overall conclusion: less signal, more birds; strong signal, fewer birds.

But clearly there has to be more to it than that - as others mentioned, the species you note as disappearing are not doing likewise in other areas with 4G, eg signs of recovery of House Sparrows in the UK as opposed to total disappearance in your area, a seeming lack of effect in my area against a catastrophic decline in yours. All these areas are subject to 4G and, as pointed out, far better 4G coverage here than anywhere else in Europe.

I fully commend your research and think it good to open a discussion/do further digging, but to pin it on 4G I think you need to be able to explain why the effect is seemingly localised, why other areas with equal/more 4G are not appearing to show the same tendency.

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