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Definition of the British list following BOU

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Old Wednesday 9th October 2019, 11:34   #1
wolfbirder
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Definition of the British list following BOU

Before you say, I knew that the Common Nighthawk I saw in Northern Ireland could not be added to my British list as the Northern Irish birding body prefer to abjudicate over rarities seen there.

I do understand the difference between UK and Britain by definition (well I thought I did), but in the case of birds seen in NI, why can’t they be added to my British list once the Northern Irish body accept a species?

The argument about BOU overseeing birds on Britain only (as far as I see it The definition of Britain is just the key solid landmass but not outlying islands like Scilly and Shetlands) is therefore arguably controversial if it bends the rule in relation to acceptance of birds on these outlying islands. Remember Great Britain is not a Country, it’s a landmass.

This is why I feel it is rather contradictory not to allow birds seen in Northern Ireland but to allow birds on an island half way to Scandinavia?
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Old Wednesday 9th October 2019, 12:06   #2
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Originally Posted by wolfbirder View Post
Before you say, I knew that the Common Nighthawk I saw in Northern Ireland could not be added to my British list as the Northern Irish birding body prefer to abjudicate over rarities seen there.

I do understand the difference between UK and Britain by definition, but in the case of birds seen in NI, why can’t they be added to my British list once the Northern Irish body accept a species?

The argument about BOU overseeing birds on Britain only (as far as I see it The definition of Britain is just the key solid landmass but not outlying islands like Scilly and Shetlands) is therefore controversial as it bends the rule in relation to acceptance of birds on these outlying islands. Remember Great Britain is not a Country, it’s a landmass.

This is why I feel it is rather contradictory not to allow birds seen in Northern Ireland but to allow birds on an island half way to Scandinavia?
What you count and don't count is up to you. But if you align to someone else's definitions you have to follow their lines.

There are a number of misnomers here.

The British Isles includes both land masses and the outlying islands.

Great Britain is the territories of England, Wales and Scotland. Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the full definition of the United Kingdom's. This is a political definition that doesn't include Isle of Man nor the Channel Islands.

There is no definition of 'Britain' per se. It can be short hand for either British Isles or Great Britain.

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Old Wednesday 9th October 2019, 12:16   #3
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British list covers all England, Scotland and Wales, including offshore islands that are part of those three countries. Anything that isn't England, Scotland or Wales is excluded. Inevitably a bit of politics/history comes into it and spoils the geographical "purity" a bit (e.g. Shetland counts while IOM doesn't). But how could it be otherwise? Where would you draw the line with offshore islands?

I often think it must be similar if you kept an Island of Borneo list. Even though in theory it's a geographical rather than political unit, inclusion of offshore and oceanic islands in the list area will depend on whether they fall under political control from any of the Bornean mainland regions.

But I don't see any reason why you can't keep a UK list instead.

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Old Wednesday 9th October 2019, 13:00   #4
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Originally Posted by BOU
The BOU maintains the British List, the official list of wild bird record in Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales and associated waters). The List is managed by the BOU’s Records Committee (BOURC).
once out of BOU area yr dealing with UK400 which includes ireland, northern ireland & isle of man

if it isn't confusing enough so far, bubo has a multitude of lists to choose from including western palearctic

to sumarise: nighthawk in antrim can't be counted on BOU list, but can be counted on nearly every other list you can think of

of course, that takes nothing away from the amazing sight of a nighthawk hawking about
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Old Wednesday 9th October 2019, 13:10   #5
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to sumarise: nighthawk in antrim can't be counted on BOU list, but can be counted on nearly every other list you can think of
It can't be counted on James' Borneo list though
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Old Wednesday 9th October 2019, 13:32   #6
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Thanks for your thoughts folks. The critical error in the attached definition I was relying on is the one of Britain / Great Britain which wrongly (it seems) defines it only as a single landmass not containing outlying islands that are managed from the mainland. That simple error in definition wrongly created the contradiction in my thinking. It states only the British Isles contains islands like Shetland and Scilly, but Britain doesn’t.

Hope that makes sense.

http://Www.historic-uk.com/Historyof...he-Difference/

The link above sometimes breaks but I have copied the text below, but the piece highlighted in red about the definition of Britain is I believe wrong, as it refers to it as only being a single landmass, and NOT including outlying islands - hence my overall point about including birds on Shetlands/Scillies but not NI.

The UK & Great Britain – What’s the Difference?
(by Ben Johnson)

It’s a question we often get asked; The UK, Britain, Great Britain, The British Isles, England… what’s the difference? Well, being the helpful folk that we are, we’ve decided to put forward a helpful cribsheet on just that subject!

The United Kingdom (UK)

The UK is short for The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland… quite a mouthful! It is a sovereign state (in the same way as France or the USA) but is made up of four countries; England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. For Americans, the best analogy would be that the UK is like the USA, whilst its four consistent countries are like states.
There is a long and complicated history that follows the formation of the United Kingdom, but here are the highlights:
c. 925 – The Kingdom of England. Established by the unification of Anglo-Saxon tribes across modern day England.
1536 – Kingdom of England and Wales. A bill enacted by King Henry VIII which effectively made England and Wales the same country, governed by the same laws.
1707 – Kingdom of Great Britain. The Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) joined with the Kingdom of Scotland to form The Kingdom of Great Britain.
1801 – United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Ireland joins the union, and once again the name changes.
1922 – United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland (Eire, or ‘Southern Ireland’) withdraws from the union, leaving just the northern counties of Ireland. This is the UK that remains to this day.
So when was the UK established? Although some people argue that the UK was formed in 1707 by the Act of Union between England, Wales and Scotland, the name United Kingdom wasn’t adopted until 1801 when Ireland was brought into the union.


Great Britain (sometimes just referred to as ‘Britain’)

Great Britain is not a country; it’s a landmass. It is known as ‘Great’ because it is the largest island in the British Isles, and houses the countries of England, Scotland and Wales within its shores.
The name Britain derives from the Roman word Britannia, but there are two conflicting arguments about why the ‘Great’ was stuck on the front of it. The first is that it is used to distinguish Britain from its similar sounding, but much smaller French neighbour, Brittany. The second reason is due to the ego of a certain King James I, who wanted to make it abundantly clear that he wasn’t just the king of the old Roman Britain (which only included England and some of Wales), but of the entire island; thus he referred to himself as King of Great Britain.


The British Isles

The British Isles is the name of a group of islands situated off the north western corner of mainland Europe. It is made up of Great Britain, Ireland, The Isle of Man, The Isles of Scilly, The Channel Islands (including Guernsey, Jersey, Sark and Alderney), as well as over 6,000 other smaller islands.
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Old Wednesday 9th October 2019, 18:15   #7
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Nick

Wow. I had no idea that the BOU had not only removed species and records from the Republic of Ireland but also those from Northern Ireland as well.

Learn something new every day. If you want to keep a combined list simply add decision-making bodies together.

Well twitched. I'm getting increasingly jealous of those who have had some chasing to do this autumn!

All the best
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Old Wednesday 9th October 2019, 18:19   #8
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Nick

Wow. I had no idea that the BOU had not only removed species and records from the Republic of Ireland but also those from Northern Ireland as well.

Learn something new every day. If you want to keep a combined list simply add decision-making bodies together.

Well twitched. I'm getting increasingly jealous of those who have had some chasing to do this autumn!

All the best
Except for Thayer's Gull ....
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Old Wednesday 9th October 2019, 18:33   #9
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Originally Posted by Paul Chapman View Post
Nick

Wow. I had no idea that the BOU had not only removed species and records from the Republic of Ireland but also those from Northern Ireland as well.

Learn something new every day. If you want to keep a combined list simply add decision-making bodies together.

Well twitched. I'm getting increasingly jealous of those who have had some chasing to do this autumn!

All the best
I know I didn't explain myself well Paul. It was based on the definition of Britain as highlighted in the link at post 6.
But I didn't say or imply they removed species and records from the Republic nor Northern Ireland (did I?). Are you saying they have done Paul?

I have today created a new list on BUBO for Britain and Ireland, is it simply an amalgamation of the 2 lists? Who is the adjudicating body?

Many thanks Paul.
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Old Wednesday 9th October 2019, 19:07   #10
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Except for Thayer's Gull ....
Well we all know it needs to be updated..........

http://www.irbc.ie/topbar/categories.php

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfbirder View Post
I know I didn't explain myself well Paul. It was based on the definition of Britain as highlighted in the link at post 6.
But I didn't say or imply they removed species and records from the Republic nor Northern Ireland (did I?). Are you saying they have done Paul?
Yes eg Fox Sparrow.

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Originally Posted by wolfbirder View Post
I have today created a new list on BUBO for Britain and Ireland, is it simply an amalgamation of the 2 lists? Who is the adjudicating body?
Yes - an amalgamation done by the website administrators (I believe).

All the best
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Old Wednesday 9th October 2019, 20:30   #11
Larry Sweetland
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It can't be counted on James' Borneo list though
Lol, that was my immediate first thought. Common Nighthawk in Borneo would be quite something, even it was on an outlying islet of controversial political alignment 😁
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Old Wednesday 9th October 2019, 23:25   #12
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Originally Posted by wolfbirder View Post
I have today created a new list on BUBO for Britain and Ireland, ...
I have no connections to Ireland, but I do to Denmark . . . can bubo create a list for Britain and Denmark? Or for any other pair of countries one might want to chose?
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Old Thursday 10th October 2019, 06:08   #13
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I have no connections to Ireland, but I do to Denmark . . . can bubo create a list for Britain and Denmark? Or for any other pair of countries one might want to chose?
Maybe you can Nutcracker(:-.


I do see the need for a British Isles list, or British and Irish Isles list if you prefer to call it that (I think it really should be called the latter). To me, its more controversial to include Shetlands as you might argue it is not quite part of a collection or cluster of close islands, from a geographical location perspective, though politically it’s part of UK.
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Old Thursday 10th October 2019, 08:25   #14
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Didn't it used to be the 'British and Irish list' at one point, including the whole of Ireland?

I know a lot of old timers who steadfastly, refuse to adopt the new arrangement as they'd lose quite a few birds and they still twitch Ireland to this day.
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Old Thursday 10th October 2019, 08:29   #15
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I think a lot of people are now adopting the Britain and Ireland list (over 500 on BUBO) as Ireland undoubtedly Offers up some great birds, and travel is cheap.
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Old Thursday 10th October 2019, 20:04   #16
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Didn't it used to be the 'British and Irish list' at one point, including the whole of Ireland?

I know a lot of old timers who steadfastly, refuse to adopt the new arrangement as they'd lose quite a few birds and they still twitch Ireland to this day.
The Irish Rarities Committee was formed in 1971.
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Old Thursday 10th October 2019, 20:06   #17
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I think a lot of people are now adopting the Britain and Ireland list (over 100 on BUBO) as Ireland undoubtedly Offers up some great birds, and travel is cheap.
So on my non-existant B+I list can I tick the Thayer's Gull I saw in Lincs Nick?
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Old Thursday 10th October 2019, 20:19   #18
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I have no connections to Ireland, but I do to Denmark . . . can bubo create a list for Britain and Denmark? Or for any other pair of countries one might want to chose?
What, like England and Scotland?

p.s. There is no such country as Britain.

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Old Friday 11th October 2019, 04:52   #19
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So on my non-existant B+I list can I tick the Thayer's Gull I saw in Lincs Nick?
That's the issue for me, who is the adjudicating body on these joined-up lists?
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Old Friday 11th October 2019, 06:01   #20
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I still have my copy of Birds New to Britain and Ireland.....

Laurie
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Old Friday 11th October 2019, 06:41   #21
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That's the issue for me, who is the adjudicating body on these joined-up lists?
No one until both Britain and Ireland follow the same listing basis. Don't know the Irish position re "Isabelline" Shrikes or Easter Yellow Wagtail.
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Old Friday 11th October 2019, 07:50   #22
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That's the issue for me, who is the adjudicating body on these joined-up lists?
'Body' is about right there, it's adjudicated by a corpse
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No one until both Britain and Ireland follow the same listing basis. Don't know the Irish position re "Isabelline" Shrikes or Easter Yellow Wagtail.
AFAIK, the official Irish list follows IOC, same as BOU, except that when they updated, they forgot to demote Thayer's to a subspecies; it's just an accidental oversight that it's still on. Hence Paul's "Well we all know it needs to be updated.........."
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Old Friday 11th October 2019, 08:56   #23
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So on my non-existant B+I list can I tick the Thayer's Gull I saw in Lincs Nick?

As long as one of the relevant bodies has adjudicated any given species occurence, if the individual wants to amalgamate the two lists, it's up to them is it not? I know planty of birders who will refer to their 'British and Irish' list.

The oft quoted line here is 'it's your list, do what you want with it' and if people want to compare lists, all they need to do is make sure that they're applying the same criteria. If we're comparing the length of a body part, we should all be measuring from the same place.....
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Old Friday 11th October 2019, 12:36   #24
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A slightly off-topic question regard the Isle of Man...

The BOU British List covers "England, Scotland and Wales and associated waters", it explicitly does not cover the Isle of Man. But the Isle of Man is sitting in "associated waters", how far offshore does a Manx bird have to go to count towards a British list?
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Old Friday 11th October 2019, 14:23   #25
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A slightly off-topic question regard the Isle of Man...

The BOU British List covers "England, Scotland and Wales and associated waters", it explicitly does not cover the Isle of Man. But the Isle of Man is sitting in "associated waters", how far offshore does a Manx bird have to go to count towards a British list?
Most people I know who have been twitching for 20+ years keep a Britain, Ireland & Isle of Man list. The Isle of Man does not count on a British List so for instance I need Calandra Lark for my British List but count it on my Britain, Ireland and Isle of Man list:-

https://bubo.org/Listing/view-list.html?list_id=21080

https://bubo.org/Listing/view-list.html?list_id=21075

Bubo correctly labels the latter. There are no species recorded on the Isle of Man that have not been recorded in Britain and Ireland albeit at least two species occurred there first being White-throated Robin and Mourning Dove. I believe that people waited for news but did not fly for the Mourning Dove as it was found dead the following day.

The Isle of Man territorial waters are 12 nautical miles being c22 kilometres:-

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/ibi.12536

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