Coue's Arctic Redpoll, Macclesfield, UK (1 Viewer)

ColinD · Mar 30, 2014

This morning we were at Macclesfield to look for the Coue's Arctic Redpoll which has been around for a week or so. Very early on (about 6:30am) about 10 redpolls came down to the feeders. There were a few Lessers, about three Mealys and another bird which we were not certain about. I took a few photos, but they are pretty poor, mainly due to poor light, so apologies for that. Unfortunately we did not see this birds rump.

However, having looked at the photos on the computer screen, I'm now fairly sure that it is the Coue's Arctic Redpoll. Its' just so much paler than the Lesser Redpolls, with a much smaller bill than the Mealys and with white underparts. Also, and I know that this isn't really a feature of Coue's, but if you look at the birds face, it has the same white mark under it's eye that is obvious in the photos of the bird on Bird Guides.

I've attached the photos, and wondered if anybody could give me an opinion on them. Am I correct to say that this is the Coue's Arctic Redpoll? I also have photos of Mealys from today, and in comparison their bills are huge.

I notice that negative news has been put on Bird Guides today.

sylvia staffs · Mar 30, 2014

Hi Colin it doesn't look pale enough to me, but I'm only viewing the pics on my I Phone, when I saw it a couple of weeks ago it was easy to pick out and the rump was fairly obvious even when the wings were closed.

ColinD · Mar 30, 2014

sylvia staffs said:
Hi Colin it doesn't look pale enough to me, but I'm only viewing the pics on my I Phone, when I saw it a couple of weeks ago it was easy to pick out and the rump was fairly obvious even when the wings were closed.

I did wonder about the rump and whether it would show with the wings closed, but there are photos of the bird on the internet which don't show the rump.

JHDraytonbassettpits · Mar 30, 2014

In pic 4 looks smaller then the bird on the left which appears to be a standard sized mealy, whereas the the bird concerned looks the size of Lesser Redpoll. The bird on the left has a noticeable longer tail.

Nick Smith · Mar 30, 2014

I saw the Coue's Arctic on Saturday on my 3rd attempt. It does really stand out from the rest, even when perched up in the tree as it was when we saw it. The classic "frosty" appearance is a good indicator. Far more frostier than any of the Mealies there. Some pics of the bird on the RBA site and on twitter @john_adshead

JHDraytonbassettpits · Mar 30, 2014

pics on Rare Bird Alert http://www.rarebirdalert.co.uk/RealData/gallery.asp?level=4

ColinD · Mar 30, 2014

Nick Smith said:
I saw the Coue's Arctic on Saturday on my 3rd attempt. It does really stand out from the rest, even when perched up in the tree as it was when we saw it. The classic "frosty" appearance is a good indicator. Far more frostier than any of the Mealies there. Some pics of the bird on the RBA site and on twitter @john_adshead

So how does the bird in my photos compare to the bird you saw? Perhaps I'm imagining things but my bird looks the same as that on the RBA site to me, right down to the white mark under the eye. Surely it's frostier than the mealies? Just look at photo 1 to see how it stands out from the Lesser Redpoll on the right, and look at the white underparts in photo 2.

Nick Smith · Mar 31, 2014

The bird we saw was paler than these.

ColinD · Mar 31, 2014

Trouble is, most of the doubts expressed here could equally be applied to most of the other photos of the bird which are available on the internet. Redpolls are very confusing :eek!:

Nick Smith · Mar 31, 2014

After three visits and views of the Mealies there plus checking the photos I started to think am I missing something here. As soon as I saw the bird on Saturday it was a case of ah, that's different. It stands out from the crowd.

ColinD · Mar 31, 2014

Sorry to drag this out, but here are three more photos of the bird I am calling Coue's. The first photo is particularly interesting, because from left to right it shows Mealy, "Coue's" and Lesser. All of these birds were originally on the same photo, I've just moved the Lesser a bit closer for direct comparison. The "Coue's" is clearly the palest bird, especially on it's back and with its white flanks. In fact there is hardly any brown on the bird. The other two photos also show how white the "Coue's" is. Even though the photos are pretty poor, notice also the small bill of the "Coue's" particularly in relation to the Mealy, and also notice the distinctive facial pattern of the "Coue's", with the white mark under the eye which appears on all other photos of the bird available on the internet.

I think that you have to take into account that these photos were taken at 6:30am on the day after the clocks went forward (i.e. the equivalent to 5:30am on Saturday), and that the feeders are in a dark position under trees.

HH75 · Apr 1, 2014

Hi Colin,
For a start, to allow any meaningful analysis, you'd really want to have some images that clearly depict the rump and undertail coverts, and preferrably all images would give an accurate approximation of the bird's true colouration.
Based on the evidence available here, there is more than sufficient room for doubt to not be able to firmly call this as an Arctic Redpoll of any taxon. Indeed, the apparent small size (if accurate) would suggest Lesser, some individuals of which can wear quite pale by late winter and early spring, and strongly suggest Mealy or Coue's Arctic Redpoll in colouration.
Regards,
Harry

ColinD · Apr 1, 2014

Harry Hussey said:
Hi Colin,
For a start, to allow any meaningful analysis, you'd really want to have some images that clearly depict the rump and undertail coverts, and preferrably all images would give an accurate approximation of the bird's true colouration.
Based on the evidence available here, there is more than sufficient room for doubt to not be able to firmly call this as an Arctic Redpoll of any taxon. Indeed, the apparent small size (if accurate) would suggest Lesser, some individuals of which can wear quite pale by late winter and early spring, and strongly suggest Mealy or Coue's Arctic Redpoll in colouration.
Regards,
Harry

Thanks a lot Harry, I appreciate your comments and those of everybody else. Like many people I find most redpolls difficult, and I certainly wouldn't dream of claiming a Coue's based on my photos if I didn't already know that there has been a Coue's present for a week or two at the site. I accept that the only way to be certain is to see the rump and undertail coverts.

However, I guess all that I'm trying to do is to convince myself that the bird I saw was the Coue's which has been seen regularly at the site, usually early in the morning, for the past few weeks. In fact the Coue's was seen at the site later the same day by the original finder, the owner of the garden.

I've seen Coue's before so it's not a new bird for me. What it comes down to is this, on the balance of probability, given that this very small redpoll flock definitely contains a Coue's, am I happy enough with the bird in the photos to count it as a year / North West tick :t: As an aside, it's also been a great learning experience!

Regarding the possibility of it being a Lesser, the wing bar on the pale bird seems far too broad and white for Lesser to me.

KenM · Apr 1, 2014

Was it paler than this Colin?

Nick Smith · Apr 2, 2014

ColinD said:
Thanks a lot Harry, I appreciate your comments and those of everybody else. Like many people I find most redpolls difficult, and I certainly wouldn't dream of claiming a Coue's based on my photos if I didn't already know that there has been a Coue's present for a week or two at the site. I accept that the only way to be certain is to see the rump and undertail coverts.

However, I guess all that I'm trying to do is to convince myself that the bird I saw was the Coue's which has been seen regularly at the site, usually early in the morning, for the past few weeks. In fact the Coue's was seen at the site later the same day by the original finder, the owner of the garden.

I've seen Coue's before so it's not a new bird for me. What it comes down to is this, on the balance of probability, given that this very small redpoll flock definitely contains a Coue's, am I happy enough with the bird in the photos to count it as a year / North West tick :t: As an aside, it's also been a great learning experience!

Regarding the possibility of it being a Lesser, the wing bar on the pale bird seems far too broad and white for Lesser to me.

Its not that small a flock at its peak. Sometimes we had 40-50 Redpoll fly out of the trees when they were flushed

ColinD · Apr 2, 2014

KenM said:
Was it paler than this Colin?

Certainly paler and greyer than the bird on the left, and even on my photos you can see that the flanks are much whiter and less streaked than that. Not sure about the bird on the right, it looks white enough underneath, but I would have thought that my birds back was paler than this, but it's a little hard to say from your photo because it doesn't show the back too clearly.

KenM · Apr 3, 2014

View attachment 490444

ColinD said:
Certainly paler and greyer than the bird on the left, and even on my photos you can see that the flanks are much whiter and less streaked than that. Not sure about the bird on the right, it looks white enough underneath, but I would have thought that my birds back was paler than this, but it's a little hard to say from your photo because it doesn't show the back too clearly.

More shots of the back, presumably the bird in question was paler than this?

ColinD · Apr 4, 2014

KenM said:
View attachment 490444

More shots of the back, presumably the bird in question was paler than this?

I'm not really sure where we're going with this now :-O ! To be honest I've looked at so many photos of the bird and I've reviewed my photos so many times that it's quite hard to remember exactly what I saw with any great accuracy. I would say that yes the bird was paler, or greyer than these photos, but again remember that it was 6:30am and the light wasn't great. All I can say with certainty is that I saw Mealys with the "Coue's" and it looked obviously different to them, and I saw Lessers and it looked different to them. It stood out.

In my opinion, the bird in my photos is the Coue's Arctic Redpoll, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, it's not a new bird for me, everybody knows that there was a Coue's there and it's not like I need to submit the record. Ironically, I bet there are plenty of people who visited this site and have confidently ticked Coue's, but who actually didn't see the bird any better than me, but their sightings will not be subject to scrutiny!

Thanks to everybody who contributed to this discussion :t:

Cheshire Birder · Apr 5, 2014

ColinD said:
I'm not really sure where we're going with this now :-O ! To be honest I've looked at so many photos of the bird and I've reviewed my photos so many times that it's quite hard to remember exactly what I saw with any great accuracy. I would say that yes the bird was paler, or greyer than these photos, but again remember that it was 6:30am and the light wasn't great. All I can say with certainty is that I saw Mealys with the "Coue's" and it looked obviously different to them, and I saw Lessers and it looked different to them. It stood out.

In my opinion, the bird in my photos is the Coue's Arctic Redpoll, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, it's not a new bird for me, everybody knows that there was a Coue's there and it's not like I need to submit the record. Ironically, I bet there are plenty of people who visited this site and have confidently ticked Coue's, but who actually didn't see the bird any better than me, but their sightings will not be subject to scrutiny!

Thanks to everybody who contributed to this discussion :t:

Having seen the pictures of the bird taken by the home owner on RBA, I would agree with your assessment of the bird.

CB

Coue's Arctic Redpoll, Macclesfield, UK (1 Viewer)

Well-known member

Attachments

Filthy tick hungary Twitcher

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member of the Staffordshire Bird Club

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member of the Staffordshire Bird Club

Well-known member

Member of the Staffordshire Bird Club

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Member of the Staffordshire Bird Club

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Similar threads

Users who are viewing this thread