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Tit,Northern Greece

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Old Tuesday 10th April 2018, 17:25   #1
ody
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Tit,Northern Greece

Which Tit?
Marsh or willow?
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Old Tuesday 10th April 2018, 17:29   #2
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Glossy black cap and what seems to be a lack of a pale wing panel so I'll go for Marsh, the pale spot at the bill base is also visible.



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Old Tuesday 10th April 2018, 18:35   #3
lou salomon
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evenly long tail feathers - another pro marsh tit.
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Old Tuesday 10th April 2018, 19:04   #4
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evenly long tail feathers - another pro marsh tit.
That's a new one on me...are willow tits more rounded?

Third vote for marsh BTW, pale spot at bill base as pointed out by Andy plus what seems to be a 'smaller headed' appearance, compared to 'bull necked' willow.
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Old Tuesday 10th April 2018, 20:32   #5
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That's a new one on me...are willow tits more rounded?

Third vote for marsh BTW, pale spot at bill base as pointed out by Andy plus what seems to be a 'smaller headed' appearance, compared to 'bull necked' willow.
Tail corners are supposedly more rounded but it's very hard to see usually.



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Old Tuesday 10th April 2018, 21:20   #6
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If the tail is folded, from below you can usually recognise that in Willow Tit the outer tail feathers are shorter than the inner. E.g. shown in this picture: http://birdphoto.fi/lajikuvat/kuvahtml/0parmon129.html
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Old Tuesday 10th April 2018, 22:52   #7
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I read in one article that the underparts of the Willow Tit tend to be warm buff whereas those of the Marsh Tit are "pale buff"
This bird perhaps it appears rather pale underneath
Also the neck being smaller than that of the Willow Tit, which latter bird is reputed to accordingly have a "bullish" appearance, as opposed to the bird under consideration here.
The white cheeks of the Willow Tit are more extensive than those of the Marsh Tit which is I imagine another point in favour of this bird being a Marsh Tit perhaps
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Old Wednesday 11th April 2018, 08:09   #8
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I read in one article that the underparts of the Willow Tit tend to be warm buff whereas those of the Marsh Tit are "pale buff"
This bird perhaps it appears rather pale underneath
Also the neck being smaller than that of the Willow Tit, which latter bird is reputed to accordingly have a "bullish" appearance, as opposed to the bird under consideration here.
The white cheeks of the Willow Tit are more extensive than those of the Marsh Tit which is I imagine another point in favour of this bird being a Marsh Tit perhaps
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There is some racial variation,the Willow Tits we see in Russia are very pale underneath



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Old Wednesday 11th April 2018, 16:17   #9
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That's most interesting: I wasn't aware of geographical variation
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Old Thursday 12th April 2018, 12:05   #10
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If the tail is folded, from below you can usually recognise that in Willow Tit the outer tail feathers are shorter than the inner. E.g. shown in this picture: http://birdphoto.fi/lajikuvat/kuvahtml/0parmon129.html
Thanks, I've got a photo of my own I can't decide on - this might well help

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There is some racial variation,the Willow Tits we see in Russia are very pale underneath



A
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That's most interesting: I wasn't aware of geographical variation
According to Scythebill (using IOC taxonomy), British willow tits are subspecies kleinschmidti, whereas Andy's paler birds are most likely ssp. borealis (Scandinavia to Ukraine). I had ssp. restrictus in Japan recently, which are very pale. Unfortunately marsh tits (ssp. hensoni) are also very pale in Japan...
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Old Thursday 12th April 2018, 15:17   #11
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According to Scythebill (using IOC taxonomy), British willow tits are subspecies kleinschmidti, whereas Andy's paler birds are most likely ssp. borealis (Scandinavia to Ukraine). I had ssp. restrictus in Japan recently, which are very pale. Unfortunately marsh tits (ssp. hensoni) are also very pale in Japan...
And for northern Greece, Willow Tits (rare and confined to a very few high altitude sites in the far N) are nominate P. m. montanus, and Marsh Tits (scarce, but more widespread than Willow, and at somewhat lower altitudes) are nominate P. p. palustris
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