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Perger Prisms (1 Viewer)

Regardless of the prism type, all hand held laser rangefinder binoculars have an internally projected data display...
Of course John, but except for the last Geovid with Perger prisms, if I'm not mistaken they all have an auxiliary glass, orthogonal to the optical axis, in addition to the classic scheme.

I'm not a hunter and I don't use RF binoculars, but a few times I happened to try some of them in the shop. On one occasion a few years ago I was trying out various binoculars in a shop, including an EL-Range.
Even today I do not know the cause well, but compared to an Ultravid of the same format, in Swaro it seemed to me to see a very light greenish chromatic dominant, more evident in the black of the shadows than in the rest of the bright image.
I have always attributed this greenish hue to the display glass for the rangefinder, although in fact I will never be able to say it with certainty, because at the time another non-Range EL was not available in the store, for direct comparison.

And this reminds me of the question:
why did Leica use the Perger system for its Geovid RF binoculars?
 
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Hi Rico,

As with some of your posts in other threads, you’ve reached a point where you are:
- asking increasingly narrow questions of very limited significance, and
- making specific but unsubstantiated assertions


If you have a real interest in the detail of how the attached modules project data into the prism systems of range finders, I suggest that you do a patent search
The available information will surprise you


The physical additions for data projection do not primarily influence the overall hue of the viewed image (and the hue does not change when the ranging function is activated)

As has been discussed in numerous threads on this forum and in other places, manufacturers primarily determine what if any hue they want the viewed image to have,
by their choices in the combination of multi-coatings

If you want to read a comprehensive analysis of the effect of the premium manufacturer’s choices, see Tobias Mennle’s work starting at:
http://www.greatestbinoculars.com/allpages/articles/coloursandbrightness.html


As to why Leica chose to use Perger prisms in the gen 3 Geovids? Who knows? They haven't said


John


p.s. at the risk of causing offence, I need to point out that your posts repeatedly exhibit a range of traits associated with autism
If autism is a factor, then I understand the problem for you in the virtual world:
without your relatives or colleagues being physically present, you lack the necessary feedback to realise the point at which your behaviour starts to become excessive
 
For those interested, the link provided by Rico in post #23 is to a single page of a US patent filed in 2003, where the Japanese OEM company of Kamakura Koki is the assignee
(see both an attached copy of the page and the complete patent)

The patent shows a particularly bulky implementation of a RF system for binoculars (as can be seen in the screen grab), which does not seem to have been put into production
Neither the images nor the text make it clear what prisms were intended to be used (though there is a visible degree of offset)

The part #67 that Rico referred to, is a focusable glass plate that has an attached LCD panel to display the distance information
It's located between the prisms and the eyepiece of the right hand barrel


John
 

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Hi Rico,


The physical additions for data projection do not primarily influence the overall hue of the viewed image (and the hue does not change when the ranging function is activated)

As has been discussed in numerous threads on this forum and in other places, manufacturers primarily determine what if any hue they want the viewed image to have,
by their choices in the combination of multi-coatings
[/url]


As to why Leica chose to use Perger prisms in the gen 3 Geovids? Who knows? They haven't said


John


p.s. at the risk of causing offence, I need to point out that your posts repeatedly exhibit a range of traits associated with autism
If autism is a factor, then I understand the problem for you in the virtual world:
without your relatives or colleagues being physically present, you lack the necessary feedback to realise the point at which your behaviour starts to become excessive

John,

I have seen tests which indicate a decrease/unmatching of transmittance in various RF instruments. If there is such an unmatching then even a slight gradient across the spectrum in the restricted path by a few percent in a critical area eg. Green could impact a viewer's color perception, on that eye, I believe. As it is a binocular, not a monocular, the effects on color vision resulting from unbalanced channels are unpredictable; they will depend on the individual.

I can't imagine that any manufacturer will reformulate coatings on a single side to compensate, although of course having dummy non-active components in the second path would easily match both sides.Also, white adaptation, does not seem to compensate for the discomfort of of some instrument users. The problem of non-flat transmission curves is -fortunately or unfortunately- an issue for all manufacturers, not just a topic restricted to RF, as in the end for most of us an image consists of color.

Re your remarks on autism, as a mathematician who is somewhere on the spectrum like many of us in the tech professions, I do commiserate with the fact that you suffer from being the only neurotypical individual locked in a room with people who refuse to be "normal". Their obstinacy to conform so imperfectly will never cease to astound you. As Mr. Sartre said, "L'enfer c'est les autres".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Exit

Edmund
 
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Hi Edmund,

Of course you are right. In making those comments about transmission, I was aware that there are technical qualifications,
in that the transmission curves of the Leica and Zeiss rangefinders differ markedly from their non-RF counterparts
- and that the Swarovski EL Range is outstandingly superior in this regard (both in overall shape and left-right consistency)
e.g. see this thread and especially Gijs' transmission graphs at post #19 at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=3883587#post3883587

However, I was talking in terms of outcome. And for obvious reasons I wanted to make a practical point, without a large number of technical qualifications
On reflection, I should have more much precisely said:
’The physical additions for data projection do not significantly influence the perceived overall hue of the viewed image’


What’s striking, is that notwithstanding the complex shapes of the Zeiss and Leica RF curves and their left-right variations, that almost without exception, people:
- don’t comment on the hue of the perceived images as being different to the non-RF counterparts (with Canip being an exception in post #9 of the above link), and
- nor do they comment on notable deficiencies in the range of perceived hues

Though a rare individual may:
- consciously perceive the difference in overall transmission between the two barrels by noting that one is notably darker, and
- may also experience eye strain (which he may have correctly or not attributed to the relative darkness of one barrel)
e.g. see the contrasting comments at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=373583


In practice we seem to have much more tolerance for, and ability to adapt to, technical inconsistencies then we would think
As can be see from Gijs’ data, if we were in practice as sensitive to transmission differences as test conditions indicate,
Zeiss and Leica would be unable to give away their binocular rangefinders!


- - - -

I think that it’s generally under appreciated just how much control over the range of perceived hues that modern manufacturers can and do exercise

If we look at a basic non-RF binocular and only consider the primary anti-reflective coatings on the lens surfaces, it will have at least 10 air-to-glass surfaces:
3 eyepiece groups and 2 objective groups including the focuser, each with a front and rear surface - with each having a minimum of 3 coatings

However, this does not mean that the coatings are the same on each surface (there is a large range available)
This is readily apparent with many binoculars when just comparing the main reflection from the objectives to those of the eyepieces
And if you look deeply into an objective you’ll often see a series of different colours reflected from the various air-to-glass surfaces

And manufacturers do tune the coatings of different models in the same range
e.g. my Leica Ultravid HD 7x42 and 8x42 have markedly different coloured reflections from the objectives
(yellow-green and pink verses blue and green; and for what its worth, their numbering is within 2,700 units)

Consequently, I wouldn’t be surprised if Zeiss or Leica do differently tune the interior coatings between the two barrels of their RF models
(you’d expect that they’d keep the exterior surfaces the same to avoid the obvious query as to whether there was something wrong with the lenses)

With computerised and automated production of batches of components, the above would not be difficult


John


p.s. In relation to my comments on autism, I don’t have a binary view but rather a functional one
The issue is that when such a condition is present, the degree to which it affects an individual’s behaviour and hence his or her interaction with others
When behaviour is socially unacceptable - due to whatever cause - it needs to be addressed
 
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...... The issue is that when such a condition is present, the degree to which it affects an individual’s behaviour and hence interaction with others
When behaviour is socially unacceptable - due to whatever cause - it needs to be addressed

I agree 100% - society needs to change ! :) o:)




Chosun :gh:
 
What’s striking, is that notwithstanding the complex shapes of the Zeiss and Leica RF curves and their left-right variations, that almost without exception, people:
- don’t comment on the hue of the perceived images as being different to the non-RF counterparts (with Canip being an exception in post #9 of the above link), and
- nor do they comment on notable deficiencies in the range of perceived hues

I agree and that matches my own observation: I have looked through these rangefinders at Shot Show and there is no issue with left-right difference in transmission (which in the case of Zeiss Victory 8X45 is some 15%). These binoculars look absolutely fine.

Your conclusions lead to the following corollary: These transmission curves and theoretical nit-pickings pertaining to color balance of binoculars are irrelevant to a human observer. All modern binoculars have good transmission and a few percent more or less transmission makes no difference whatsoever during field use.

Furthermore, in many occasions while hunting or sailing, the user is wearing sunglasses. This reduces transmission by another 20-40% and completely disrupts the color balance curve to provide a MUCH BETTER view! ;)
 
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Another example of the ability of the brain to favourably respond to, what many might consider technically to be unacceptably large visual disparity,
is with the Swarovski X series of modular telescopes in the binoviewer configuration
i.e. the BTX version which combines a single objective with a complex prism and dual eyepiece combination to provide binocular viewing

Again thanks to the work of Gijs we have transmission data, see the images from the attached 2017 paper

What’s notable about reviews of the BTX, especially in comparison to the conventional ATX or STX configurations,
is not that people complain about the discrepancy between the left and right eye views, or how dark the view is,
but rather they comment on the ease and comfort of the view

I’m reminded of the observation that:
‘In theory there is not much difference between theory and practice. However, in practice that is often not the case’


John


p.s. the sudden change back to the yellow surround to the forum's pages is slightly shocking!
- the blue version was much more restful (if only it could be Christmas all year?)
 

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Perhaps somebody DID make Perger prism binoculars about 100 years before the US patent linked above?
I have come across another pair of vintage no-name binoculars similar to these renovated by Potts34 and posted in the vintage thread on the other forum.


(Ignore the reference to REL, that just happens to be the top post on the page!)

Admittedly, it looks as though the designer intended the prisms to be cemented together, but didn't tell the maker!

Strange ...

Would that invalidate the patent, as 'prior art'?

I wonder if patent issues and industrial espionage 100 years ago might explain poorly-executed binoculars, with no maker's name?

Edit: update: the mysterious origins are explained. It is a Schuetz Cassel, possibly sold as Aitchison London "The Imperial", although several models were given that name.
By stechambers34 on Flickr. A.k.a. Potts34 ?
Also Frank on Flickr

It seems the Perger patent lists three sub-types:
  • Porro II, but made from 2 not 3 prisms
  • ditto, with the joining surface not perpendicular to the reflected optic axis
  • ditto, with the reflected axis not perpendicular to input and output axes
I believe the Schütz Kassel is the first sub-type. You could call it Porro-Perger 2.1 ?
 
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Hi Eric,

While both Perger and Porro Type II prisms have 4 reflections and no roof:

A) The Perger prism (in all forms) is narrow and long in relation to the optical axis, with the entry and exit faces at each end.
(so similar to the Abbe-Koening roof prism).

B) In contrast, a Porro Type II prism is wide and short, with the entry and exit faces nearly side by side
(see figures I, 3 and 5; from the Abbe patent of 1893, see post #30 at: New Horizons II )

Perger vs Porro II.jpg


The images in the Cloudy Nights link seem to be showing a Porro Type II variation (also see the later comments in posts #682 and 683 in the link):

???.jpg


John
 

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