Nikon FF (and DX) Mirrorless rumours/ announcements (1 Viewer)

marcsantacurz said:

Super high MP is not necessarily a desirable thing. You will see edge blurring from minor shakes unless you have good posture, high shutter speed, or good IBIS. No one really needs more than 24-ish MP unless you want really big enlargements or a lot of cropping. With the d850 (45MP), shot at 1/2500 or faster, I can get 4x-6x crops and still shoot at ISO 2000 - 6400. I'm not sure if a 61MP sensor will be that much better. It's a sqrt() relationship between MP and crop. a 4x crop on 45MP is 2.8MP, on 61MP it is 3.8MP. I don't think that's much difference.

We'll need to see how the AF and dynamic range come out.

Personally, I'm not rushing to order the A7rIV. I'll wait to see what all the Sony announcements are, and what Nikon might offer up in the next 3-4 months. I think the A4rIV is more for landscape & portrait, we'll see what their sports-oriented announcements are.

Marc

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Marc, agree with what you've said in some cases, but with the high MP it has the makings of a great all-rounder, especially with the multiple formats (3:2, 16:9, 4:3, 1:1) offered. Birders always seem to be able to use more crop.

In APS-C crop mode it will be 26.2MP and offer a 3x bigger buffer - so ~200 compressed RAW, or ~100 uncompressed RAW shots ..... good enough for about 10 seconds of blazing away at 10fps. You also get virtually full AF point coverage across the crop frame. All that, and a pixel shift landscape, or small sized low light /walkaround camera too.

This gives me great hope that the Nikon 'Z8' (my feeling is at least 12 months away - after the Olympics) which would use the same sensor and essentially be the same thing will be the one. I really like the ready info accessibility of a top plate LCD display, so I will wait to see how each of these feel in the hand .... and also what lenses filter through ....

Exciting times for photographers !




Chosun :gh:

Chosun Juan said:

In APS-C crop mode it will be 26.2MP and offer a 3x bigger buffer - so ~200 compressed RAW, or ~100 uncompressed RAW shots ..... good enough for about 10 seconds of blazing away at 10fps. You also get virtually full AF point coverage across the crop frame. All that, and a pixel shift landscape, or small sized low light /walkaround camera too.

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Those numbers start getting into the realm of 'do not care' for me. 200 frame buffer? It is rare that I shoot more than 10 at a time. Maybe if they had XQD instead of SD, they wouldn't need such a buffer.

With slow lenses (5.6 - 6.3), I think better ISO performance is more important than MP for crop. I suspect that unless you are shooting at low ISO, you will lose the high MP benefit.

That all said, I think I'm wth Lloyd Chambers that Sony has won the MILC war. I'm just waiting to see what all the current round of offerings are over the next 6 months or so before deciding to jump ship (Nikon) to Sony.

I've been so close to pulling the A9 trigger over the last year, especially since they have had the $1000 off. But I ask myself, what is wrong with the d850, and the main answer is "it is not mirrorless" which really is not a reason. Sure, when I'm shooting tripod at lower SS, mirrorless would reduce vibration, or when I'm shooting the 800mm f/5.6 AI-s, mirrorless with IBIS makes a difference, but overall? Nope. Maybe the full-frame AF for BIF, but I get good enough results with 3D on the d850 to not sell all my Nikon gear and buy into Sony.

Come December, I might very well be a Sony boy and flood Craigslist or Ebay with Nikon gear.

Marc

njlarsen said:

There are several Japanese corporations with photo/video portfolio you did not mention. These are not at this time the world leaders in volume, but are they exceptions to your complaint?

Niels

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Sadly they are not, even Panasonic (Matsushita) is dependent on Tower Semiconductor, a scrappy small ($5B revenue) foundry. There is no Japanese semiconductor firm on par with Samsung or TSMC, even Sony is a niche player in that space. As optical imaging and computation are clearly becoming very intimately combined, this gap in capabilities is handicapping the entire industry.

Z6/Z7 Firmware version 2.01 Released !

I don't know if this will put the Nikon Mirrorless AF in the Sony leagues overall, but should help a few situations:-
https://www.nikonrumors.co/nikon-z6-z7-firmware-version-2-01-released/




Chosun :gh:

Is This The Next Nikon Z APS-C Based Mirrorless Camera?

https://nikonrumors.com/2019/08/01/is-this-the-next-nikon-z-aps-c-based-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

Looks good. This is the way I thought Nikon would proceed with the 'compact' body APS-C Mirrorless ...... basically the body is all mount with a grip tacked onto the side of it.

No drawbacks from going Z mount for APS-C then - it's all down to the lenses now.

I'd suggest the days of 18-55 and 55-200 lenses are gone. Who the heck wants to be changing kit level lenses out in the field. Just make a decent 16-200 f3.5-f5.6 lens. Make it sharp, compact, and light - CFRP is fine.




Chosun :gh:

Chosun Juan said:

I'd suggest the days of 18-55 and 55-200 lenses are gone. Who the heck wants to be changing kit level lenses out in the field. Just make a decent 16-200 f3.5-f5.6 lens. Make it sharp, compact, and light - CFRP is fine.


Chosun :gh:

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The idea is spot on. Convenience really matters.
However, no one makes a sharp, compact and light zoom lens with even a 10x range, at least afaik. So 16-200 mm is asking a lot.

Not trying to be argumentative but the 11.1x Nikon 18-200mm works really well with the D300, from handholdable fireworks in WDW to close bird shots and has done so for me for over ten years. A little barrel distortion at the wide end but still sharp. New designs should be even better now.

JPAC said:

Not trying to be argumentative but the 11.1x Nikon 18-200mm works really well with the D300, from handholdable fireworks in WDW to close bird shots and has done so for me for over ten years. A little barrel distortion at the wide end but still sharp. New designs should be even better now.

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Excellent info.
I'm happy to stand corrected and hope that Nikon produces a worthy new successor design.

I think there is a huge opportunity available to Nikon.

I think a Z mount 16-200mm f3.5-f5.6 should be able to be designed under 90mm length, and 450gms or under. That's around the size of the DX 55-200 f5.6 lens now. On Nikon's APS-C sensor this would give an improved equivalent focal range of 24mm - 300mm.

Important because cellphone schooled 'photographers' these days expect the wide end capabilities and would appreciate the top end zoom (which no smartphone is currently matching - topping out at 160mm).

Such a new standard kit lens would signify an important change.

It would actually meet what the market wants. Convenience and performance.

The two lens 'kit' approach is an outdated marketing ploy - it was concocted so that the consumer could 'feel' like a professional with a 'bag' of multiple lenses. The reality is that changing lenses in the field is full of risk - dust /moisture / etc on sensors and lens elements. It also takes time, is inconvenient, and requires extra baggage to be carted around (even if it is in a large pocket).

The inherent Z mount benefits and aspherical elements should mean sharpness and brightness across the frame, and suitably specced glass should keep CA in check. Any residual distortion (barrel , pincushion) could be taken care of computationally as many editing software programs now do. These lenses need to be designed to accommodate the higher resolution sensors of the future, and maximize computational photography benefits.

Merely rehashing the past won't do, such a change is needed, as is more convenience in transferring /sharing , processing photos.

Nikon is investing in the future, but the current Financials are pretty punishing https://nikonrumors.com/2019/08/06/nikons-1st-quarter-fy2020-financial-results-are-out.aspx/





Chosun :gh:

For comparison, panasonic makes a 14-140 mm F3.5-5.6 with built in stabilizer which with m4/3 sensor has field of view corresponding to 28-280. This weighs in at 265 g (0.58 lb) and has a length of 75 mm (2.95″) (all data from DPReview). It is about as sharp as a kit lens can be expected to be, and has been sold as such. By this I mean that the images are OK but that a pro lens with shorter zoom can be made to be sharper.

Niels

Nikon Z8 Rumored Coming in Late 2019 to Early 2020

Just like the Sony a7R IV ..... only better ?

https://www.nikonrumors.co/nikon-z8...ly-2020-8bit-420-internal-10bit-422-external/

Looks like this may be a little earlier than I first expected. It will be interesting to see which makes an appearance first - the Z8 or D6 :cat:
I like the Nikon top LCD display - I only hope they can match it or exceed Sony in the AF and Eye-Tracking stakes ......





Chosun :gh:

Why not just update the Nikon 1 series as a small format camera. There are existing lenses that are pretty good. Update the body and the software and it would cover the "small format" market for mirrorless. All the things you can do with a 4/3 sensor you can do with a Nikon 1. The 70-300 lens for the Nikon 1 system is quite good - and an equivalent 200-810mm focal length.

The Z mount seems to work against a DX camera. The mount opening is so large you'll have a relatively large lens even for DX. You might as well go with FX with a broad lineup of lenses. And there is no chance Nikon will deploy yet another mount because it won't generate enough volume to justify lens development. Nikon is committed to the Z mount. There is a point where small enough is fine in that format.

ericbowles said:

Why not just update the Nikon 1 series as a small format camera. There are existing lenses that are pretty good. Update the body and the software and it would cover the "small format" market for mirrorless. All the things you can do with a 4/3 sensor you can do with a Nikon 1. The 70-300 lens for the Nikon 1 system is quite good - and an equivalent 200-810mm focal length.

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Agree entirely, Nikon has limited resources and really should not throw existing assets such as their Nikon 1 lenses away.
Of course, the 1 series body does need modernization, but that should not cost the earth. Only issue imho is where does Nikon get an affordable but first class sensor for it other than from Sony?

etudiant said:

Agree entirely, Nikon has limited resources and really should not throw existing assets such as their Nikon 1 lenses away.
Of course, the 1 series body does need modernization, but that should not cost the earth. Only issue imho is where does Nikon get an affordable but first class sensor for it other than from Sony?

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Doesn't that already apply to the Nikon full frame bodies, so what is the difference?

Question is: how much does Nikon earn from a "1" lens if it is not already in stock? Do they have production facilities for that format anymore? If not, that would amount to throwing good money after bad money ...

Niels

Is there much of a market for a small sensor ILC? It seems like it's 24-200 P&S or superzoom bridge cameras.

marcsantacurz said:

Is there much of a market for a small sensor ILC? It seems like it's 24-200 P&S or superzoom bridge cameras.

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I think many here recognise the benefits of the '1' system, it's potential, and lament it's virtual passing as a supported ongoingly developed system.

It could be argued that it's AF system was state of the art and led the way when it was introduced. I think the system's demise was entirely avoidable - it seemed to come from a combination of i) too expensive (including accessories) , ii) hamstrung to protect existing DSLR's , iii) undecided ergonomics - did it want to be small or easy to hold (to be fair this is a criticism I have of all market offerings - really only able to be solved by converter or add-on grips) , iv) lack of fast lenses at launch. I would have liked to see what they could have done with a 300 or 400mm f4 or f5.6 at a pinch for a 4 or 500mm telephoto perhaps even now using diffractive optics technology , v) Sensor wasn't quite there - too much chroma noise. The offerings now in the J5, Sony RX series, and the new Canon GX series are bang on what is required.

The beauty of the 1" system is that as well as the three or so interchangeable lens product ranges (V, J, AW, etc) , the bulk of the components and operating systems, and accessories etc could have been parlayed into a couple of fixed lens bridge cameras as well. It seems to me that there is a good market for the wide angle - short tele zoom Sony RX100 /Canon GX type cameras, as well as the longer telephoto zoom types such as the Sony RX10 IV etc.

I would really like to see a really wide 1" bridge telescoping zoom of say 20-200?mm , with high quality lenses as fast as they can be made (f1.4-f2.4 ?). This would be the pocket/travel/street model.

The other model would be a long telephoto model of say 35-750 or 800mm f2.4-f4 again top quality lenses. Sony has really set the standard here with it's Zeiss lenses.

This is about as much business case as you could squash out of this system, perhaps even a video centric model that could do 4K/60p as well.

As Niels said, the question is could they make any money out of each additional unit sold that would earn it's keep in the product and business portfolio ? and indeed do the facilities and expertise still exist or have they been converted to other product lines?

I could see an unhampered '1' system let off the leash to capitalise on it's full capabilities having a place. Addressing the concerns I mentioned and turbocharged with computational photography abilities, AI, and all the goodies (pixel shift frame stacking, eye AF etc) it would offer something above and beyond what is possible with smartphones ....... :cat:

We can only hope that Nikon gets in a position to resurrect it one day ....



Chosun :gh:

Nikon Z Mirrorless APS-C Camera Mockups

https://nikonrumors.com/2019/08/15/nikon-z-mirrorless-aps-c-camera-mockups.aspx/

Interesting size comparison with the Z 85mm f1.8 S lens on - that would be just a little more length than the size of a 16-200mm maybe f3.3-f4.5 which should be the standard kit lens (24-300mm eq).




Chosun :gh:

Chosun Juan said:

I think many here recognise the benefits of the '1' system, it's potential, and lament it's virtual passing as a supported ongoingly developed system.

It could be argued that it's AF system was state of the art and led the way when it was introduced.

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In 2014 a German AF comparison test had the Olympus OM-D E-M1 winning among the mirrorless cameras, but it added this remark:

As far as the pure AF system is concerned, the Nikon 1 V3 is noticeably better, but due to its user-unfriendly handling of the motive tracking, it gambles away the victory. Nikon has to do a lot more here.

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I shoot raptors in flight with the Nikon V2 and rarely miss. Same with doves, gulls etc. Being familiar with the V2, who needs tracking? Also, the V3 has a much worse AF-C than the V2. Thus if Nikon were ever to produce a V4, how can we be sure the AF-C were actually an improvement?

The OM-D E-M1 ii is said to be a huge improvement for "birds in flight". But I keep waiting for a serious shoot-out between the Nikon V2 and the E-M1 ii.

What I was trying to say: even as an N1 enthusiast I couldn't say how the V4 might have looked - the V2, V3 and J5 behave so differently in terms of AF-C and AF-A. The N1 philosophy seems to have found its "dead end". The N1 stood for simplicity, yet the general trend is the opposite. Users want to play with all the settings, just like a mini-D500.

Nikon to drop 5 DSLR lines ....

https://nikonrumors.com/2019/08/28/dpreviews-chris-nichols-nikon-is-dropping-5-lines-of-dslrs.aspx/
Along with the rumoured entry level APS-C Z Mirrorless, we can draw inferences for what this means for both DSLR and Z Mirrorless ranges into the future.

Currently Nikon has DSLR's available in:
D3xxx, D5xxx, D7xxx, D5xx, D6xx, D7xx, D8xx, D5, and Df.

Out of these I think the entry level D3xxx, D5xxx are for the chop to be replaced by virtually a single entry level APS-C Z mount Mirrorless - maybe in two flavas - one with EVF, and one without. D6xx would also be for the chop, arguably replaced by the Z6 already. The next ones for the chop would be the Df, and the D750 after it is upgraded with the D760.

I can see a case for amalgamating the Df and D760 lines into a retro style DSLR with the guts of the Z6, but than can also screw drive, and handle manual aperture, for older lenses. OK so I've chopped 5 DSLR lines, and brought one hybrid one back.

The D500 is a strange one - there was a rumour that it would be discontinued, but you'd have to ask yourself why? It is arguably the best APS-C camera available. The recent release of the mirrorless Sony 6600 just resulted in lots of fanboi's and girlz crying into their breakfast - it was anything but the 'mini a9' that many had hoped for. It seems that Sony is now every bit as crippling and Micro segment marketing as the CaNikon duopoly dinosaurs. I can't see why the D560 successor or whatever they call it couldn't just easily and cheaply build on the same winning formula with a higher resolution (26MP BSI) sensor, 4K60p cropped /4K30p uncropped video, a few more fps, and an uprated metering and AF system from the new D6 that is on the way. This will give Nikon valuable time to get the Mirrorless Pro DX up to scratch with an AF system that will at least match the D500.

I'm not sure on the fate of the D7500 whether it continues in both F and Z mount. Essentially the remaining entry level DSLR's - D7600, and D760 -> D760/Df II hybrid, become parts bin specials - largely tweaking hand me down technology. I think the 'Pro' D500, D850, and D5 next generation successors will play the same DSLR + Mirrorless game, perhaps named the Z5, Z8, and Z9 ranges ? Very interesting that the mirrorless Canon M6 II and the DSLR 90D both share sensors and processing.

I think Nikon may do something similar but with better mount migration possible. It's the best way to shepard customers through the transition while keeping a reign on development costs and time frames. Some DSLR customers will be stalwarts until EVF's advance to offer no compromise shooting and viewing compared to an OVF, and Mirrorless AF systems assert superiority (the rumoured Sony a9 II should be interesting in this regard).

Eventually when the Pro Mirrorless systems surpass the DSLR's they will all completely transition, maybe having just the one Pro level DSLR continue on along with an entry level Df II for all the retro stylers out there!





Chosun :gh: