Is this Chestnut-cheeked Starling! ID please! (1 Viewer)

Hello birders,

This is my first post and I am very happy and thankful for the birding community. I need your help to identify a bird. I have noticed the following things in the pictures. I think it is a Chestnut-cheeked starling:

White line in the edges of primary.
Uniform pinkish tone in underparts (belly and undertail coverts)
Is that a hint of chestnut cheek in picture 1 and 2!

Date: April, 24 2020
Location: Near Bagmati River. Kathmandu, Nepal.

Welcome to BirdForum Uvin. I'm moved your thread to the ID forum, where it's more likely to get the attention of those who can identify it.

Thank you so much.

Hi Uvin,

Welcome to Bird Forum.

Here in central Japan, the Chestnut-cheeked Starlings passed through over the last couple of weeks to their breeding grounds further north. And I can see that you might think this bird is a female of that species.

But they are supposed to winter in Taiwan and the Phillipines, a long, long way from Nepal.

I know nothing about the birds of Nepal, so I can't suggest an alternative ID, but it would surely be an exceptional find in Kathmandu, and therefore exceedingly unlikely (unless, possibly, it was an escaped captive bird).

I can see why you thought it was a Starling with that chunky body, long drooping wings, full undertail-coverts and short square tail, but that bill is surely too long and thin for any Starling. There are no records of Chestnut-cheeked in Nepal or anywhere near it anyway. I'm not sure what it is though. There seems to be quite a lot of white on the wing.

MacNara said:

Hi Uvin,

Welcome to Bird Forum.

Here in central Japan, the Chestnut-cheeked Starlings passed through over the last couple of weeks to their breeding grounds further north. And I can see that you might think this bird is a female of that species.

But they are supposed to winter in Taiwan and the Phillipines, a long, long way from Nepal.

I know nothing about the birds of Nepal, so I can't suggest an alternative ID, but it would surely be an exceptional find in Kathmandu, and therefore exceedingly unlikely (unless, possibly, it was an escaped captive bird).

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MacNara, vagrants occur all over Sth East Asia and at least on eBird there are records from Bangladesh and Assam, India (ebird user id is the Indian rarities committee so assume correct!) so not that much further to Nepal.

On the photo can't think of anything else off hand it would be.

Hi McNara, thanks and I am really enjoying this forum after getting interesting opinions about the bird I posted. Glad to know that the bird occurs where you live, I agree that it has not been sighted in Nepal but eBird shows the occurrences in Bangladesh and Assam (India) as Viator mentioned it. Yes I was suspecting a female Chestnut-cheeked starling. Does it look like a CCS! Can you please share opinions of some of your expert friends as well as CCS is highly occurring in Japan.

Hi andyb39, thanks for the comments.

Hi Viator, thanks for your opinion. I really appreciate it. Can you explain a little bit why you think it looks like a Chestnut-cheeked starling!

Note to the birders:

Certainly there has been no record of Chestnut-cheeked starling in Nepal, therefore it would be considered as a new bird species in my country.

Fieldmarks that I posted earlier in bird forum: Saw a strange looking bird. Black eyes, thin black bill, black feet, size similar to Chestnut-tailed starling. Cream white and light rose color underparts with comparatively small tail and thin terminal band. White wingbar and maybe white rump (Only got a glimpse). It was observed preying on a caterpillar.

It was first observed on 24th April on the high branches of Ficus religiosa or sacred fig, and stayed there for more than half an hour sitting comfortable with the companions of Coppersmith barbets, Red-vented bulbuls and House crows that are nesting in the same tree. I had not taken my camera that day but realizing this strange looking bird I combined my binoculars and camera to take few shots due to which these pictures are lacking pixels and it has a little bit warm color added in it.

I have also circulated this with the local communities and birders. There is no other species of bird close to a starling. The only contender for Chestnut-cheeked starling that a local birder suggested me was a Daurian Starling due to the occurrence (rare) of the bird in Nepal although I discovered more similarities with Chestnut-cheeked starling than Daurian Starling. I did not provide the details earlier to avoid the assertion of Chestnut-cheeked starling and I still don’t recommend you to take my opinions seriously rather I would be happy to receive the opinions based on the pictures alone.

Happy birding

Well, I can't really comment on this bird. But I can confirm the eBird records from Bangladesh are legitimate. It was the first record for BD when it was sighted in Satchori NP in March of last year. Seen by many observers (I couldn't make it there sadly) facebook.com/groups/2403154788/permalink/10157333387324789/

andyb39 said:

I can see why you thought it was a Starling with that chunky body, long drooping wings, full undertail-coverts and short square tail, but that bill is surely too long and thin for any Starling. There are no records of Chestnut-cheeked in Nepal or anywhere near it anyway. I'm not sure what it is though. There seems to be quite a lot of white on the wing.

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But the white on the wing is in quite the wrong place for the white on the wing of male, and even more female, Chestnut-cheeked Starling. Or so it seems to me, anyway. And as Andy says, the bill is too thin. And shouldn't the bird be on migration anyway - as I said they passed through central Japan before these pictures were taken.

Hi Uvin,

As the others and you have said structure seems starling like, size appears about right but obviously hard to judge from a single photo, upper body in some of the photos appears likely black and obvious white wing bar., coloration of eyes, bill and feet all correct although as Andy said bill does seem very thin in some shots. I don't think Daurian as your second photo shows chestnut area behind the eye, underparts also seem more off white - rose tinge may or may not be artefact in the image.

Added two more pictures.

Hi Seth Miller, thanks for confirming the legitimate record in Bangladesh.

MacNara apologies for the wrong spelling of your name. Yes the suspect is certainly in a strange location and time of the year.

Viator, Thanks for the explanations. I have added two more pictures showing it's bill. It would be very difficult to approve it as a new species based on these pictures.

Yesterday I wondered if I hadn't seen this bird because it has given me a lot of troubles. But today I feel glad that I saw this bird no matter what species. I have been looking for this bird a lot even during the time of lockdown. I will go and check tomorrow morning in the sacred fig trees in the surrounding areas. Thank you all.

I'm not entirely sure whether there really is chestnut behind the eye, or whether this is an illusion caused by the angle of the light. From this viewing angle it looks slightly more like a shadow to me than obvious chestnut colour. If this is shadow, I think it could be Daurian Starling, which is more likely than Chestnut-cheeked in Nepal, although I'm not 100% sure which of the two species it is. Having a view of the wing pattern would be useful, but it's not visible on these photos.

I'm not familiar with this species, but I've been looking at some online images, and it seems the bill can appear thin if the bird is viewed from below. Perhaps not as thin as it appears in these images, but that could be down to low resolution.

John, Daurian is also a vagrant to Nepal, so there's no reason to assume this bird is that species and not Chestnut-cheeked. If you ask me, it looks a bit warmly-coloured for Daurian.

MacNara, this might be an immature male, which would explain why it has a sizeable white patch on the edge of the wing.

andyb39 said:

I'm not familiar with this species, but I've been looking at some online images, and it seems the bill can appear thin if the bird is viewed from below. Perhaps not as thin as it appears in these images, but that could be down to low resolution.

John, Daurian is also a vagrant to Nepal, so there's no reason to assume this bird is that species and not Chestnut-cheeked. If you ask me, it looks a bit warmly-coloured for Daurian.

MacNara, this might be an immature male, which would explain why it has a sizeable white patch on the edge of the wing.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm going to bore you all again with my photos.

Chestnut-cheeked Starling goes through my area for a couple of weeks in early April on its way north to breed. It seems to like to take a break in our park when there is still blossom on the cherries, but some leaves are out.

I won't include a photo of an adult male, because I don't think this bird could possibly be that.

The first two photos show a female (same bird). There's no white in the lower wing, and only a dab at the top. The rump is white, but I don't think the OP's photos can show any rump given the angle. Also, the overall colouring looks different to the OP's bird to my eye.

Because they don't breed here, and because they are less on the return, we don't usually see juveniles. But a couple of years ago, I found a bird in early August mixed in with our resident White-cheeked Starlings. This was very unusual because they pass back in mid-September, so this bird was out of sync. At the time, I ID'd it as a juvenile (1cy) male - I think the wing marking is too strong to be a female, and you can see the metallic green colouring in the upper wing (if you zoom in a bit) which the female doesn't have, but it lacks the pattern and colouring of the adult male. I attach three photos of this bird.

Again, there is no significant white in the lower wing - so my opinion is that a juvenile doesn't show this feature, although I don't know if recently fledged bird might. However, the OP's bird was taken this April, so surely the plumage would be adult-ish by this time (and as I said, shouldn't it have left for the north already)?

The second photo shows this bird from an angle similar to the OP's view of his bird.

For both the female and the juvenile, I have included a photo with the bill seen from directly underneath, and although it obviously looks narrower than from other angles, I can't get it to match the OP's photo 4.

Can I just say that I would be delighted for Uvin if he (she?) went back to the park and got good shots of this bird and that he got (the first?) record of Chestnut-cheeked in Nepal.

The reason I answered the Uvin in the first place is that his thread was slipping down the pages unanswered, and especially as he is a new member, I didn't want to leave his question ignored.

And the reason I didn't answer earlier is that I thought C-c S was out of range and that someone with knowledge of birds in Nepal would come along and answer. But no-one did, so I jumped in, hoping the bump would encourage someone else.

Hi Johnallcock, thanks.

Andyb39, thanks for the insights on the bill.

MacNara, Uvin is a Heman I think the pictures that you provided will be very useful for the further discussions of the identification of the bird. HOpe you don't mind if I circulate it to other birders. Thanks for the descriptions. I could not go to the desired locations in the morning but I spent the whole afternoon looking for the suspect. Instead I discovered many previously unrecorded birds in the area. It looks like we have to conclude it based on the provided pictures.

Note: I have attached picture no 3 of OP and marked the white lining in the primary. I think it is the most important diagnostic feature for Chestnut-cheeked starling from this angle. I am happy that birders are still positive and there are no acute disagreements about CCS although everybody is perplexed. Please have a look. Good day. Thanks all once again.

andyb39 said:

John, Daurian is also a vagrant to Nepal, so there's no reason to assume this bird is that species and not Chestnut-cheeked. If you ask me, it looks a bit warmly-coloured for Daurian.

Click to expand...

I didn't say that Daurian was likely, I realise that it is rare. What I said was that it is more likely. I consider that a species that breeds in China/Mongolia/Russia and winters in SE Asia, with previously known vagrancy to Nepal, should be considered more likely than a species that breeds in Japan and winters in the Philippines and has never been recorded as far west as Nepal. As a potential first national record I think there should be strong evidence to confirm the ID.

It definitely looks like one of these two species, so it is a very good record either way. But females are very difficult to separate, and as far as I know this is best done from the pattern of white in the wing coverts, scapulars and secondaries, which are not visible on these pictures. I don't think it is identifiable from these and should be treated as Daurian/Chestnut-cheeked (but I'm happy to learn more if someone can tell for sure which it is).

Uvin Shrestha said:

Note: I have attached picture no 3 of OP and marked the white lining in the primary. I think it is the most important diagnostic feature for Chestnut-cheeked starling from this angle..

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Am I right that you mean the margin that I have marked on a photo of my female attached below?

I will say that I agreed earlier with Andy that the bill looked too slim for a starling, and because I thought the colouring not quite right for Chestnut-cheeked, and because I can't see any hint of a chestnut cheek in any photo (and the female should have a hint, sometimes quite a strong hint), and also your bird appears to have a grey cap, and for me its head is too small in relation to the body.

But on looking at this wing feature and other points (length of the vent under the tail, for example) I am more willing to admit that it's possible.

But I am still wondering why it's there at this date if it's Chestnut-cheeked, since they passed north through my area to their breeding grounds three weeks ago. Is the idea that this female left the Philippines or thereabouts and flew west to Nepal instead of north? Or is it that she has wintered there and doesn't know where to go now?

And I have no experience at all of Daurian Starling, which might also show these features for all I know. But the date question would presumably be the same for this species.

Anyway, I hope you can track it down again.

On "bill too long and thin": I've not checked forensically, but just note that pic 1 does suggest long and thin, but the others in the series shorter and more stubby (at least to me). Suggest that implies artefacts/misleading impressions at work so perhaps one wants to tread carefully

Johnallcock, Yes it’s pretty hard to confirm but there must be a key difference to separates DS and CCS even from the given angles of the images. I am not hopeful for a national record. Just curious…

MacNara, yes I was talking about the same white margin. I still have not been able to eliminate Daurian starling. It can be noticed that there is white light glowing in the wingbends, rump and whiteline can be seen in the primary feather (right wing), which could occur with both the female species of DS and CCS. But I noticed that the sidetails of DS has white edges even in females although I am not sure if there are exceptions or if this is the key difference to separate it with CCS (need confirmations). This prominent white line to the side tails is certainly missing in the images I uploaded. I am now thinking we can only make a smart guessing but cannot be confident to decide which species it is.

It seems everyone is dissatisfied with the bill…even local experts were telling me that the bill is thin and short, and the head is small. My field observation does not suggest a cap and the underparts was rather creamy white and the head and mantle was somewhat contrasting to the underparts. I was just wondering if we could replicate the photograph of a female DS and CCS by taking a picture with a cellphone attached to a 10X42 binoculars, standing directly 30 feet below the bird. Maybe that would explain the causes of the warm tones seen in the bird and the leaves. I cropped the pictures by taking the screenshots but I have not edited the colors.

The_Fern, thanks for the insights on the bill. Artefacts/misleadimg impressions maybe due to the limitation of the method I used while taking the pictures of the bird.

Even though I said I am more open to a Chestnut-cheeked Starling ID than I was earlier in this thread, I still think that the date of the photo makes this unlikely, and increases the possiblity of a false ID. Is there really nothing more likely in the locale than this rare vagrant at the wrong season?

As well as the small white edge to the wing, Uvin identified various features of the bird's face as relevant, including a possible pale chestnut cheek (which an adult female C-c S often would indeed show). So, I cropped out and expanded the heads from the four original photos that Uvin posted, and I can't find any details that seem to be constant. I wonder if the chestnut cheek that Uvin sees in one of his photos isn't just an out-of-focus twig?

Uvin says that the photos were taken "with a cellphone attached to a 10X42 binoculars, standing directly 30 feet below the bird", so to what extent can we trust colours and proportions? For example, is it impossible that a Plain Flowerpecker seen in this way (attachment 5 from the linked page) could produce photos like this? Or maybe a Flowerpecker with some colour aberration?

Well, these are just a few more thoughts. At least, as a result of this thread, I have looked at my photos of Chestnut-cheeked Starling more closely than I had before.