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Canon 7D MkIII ....

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Old Thursday 16th May 2019, 13:33   #76
temmie
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The only thing I know is DSLR still has an edge on mirrorless for long-lens wildlife photography, unless you spend more for your mirrorless set-up than an equal (sensor size / lens millimeters / F-number) DSLR setup.

Yes, you have a weight decrease with mirrorless, but if you e.g. compare to the PF Nikon lenses (that 300F is really small and light), the difference is negligible.
Olympus has a better (superior) sensor stabilizer in its OMD range bodies but if you combine it with its (excellent) 300mm lens, it's at least 50% more expensive than a similar Canon or Nikon setup.

There is quite some improvement to make (especially on stabilizer and sensor) for Canon, but at the moment, I am shooting very sharp pictures (from time to time!) and I am thus not desperately waiting (or going with the herd, making the leap to mirrorless) for a new camera. So I don't understand the canon bashing in this topic, at all.

To illustrate this, most of the shots below are cropped, some early morning thus poor light, all are size-reduced without sharpening afterwards, and with a 5-year old Canon 300mmF4 IS (first generation) + 1.4 converter II (a good but less than ideal lens combo, with 2 stops optical stabilizer), and the (now very famous because from this topic it seems a very bad camera) Canon 7D mark II, that is happily used by thousands if not millions.

Judge for yourself and tell me why I should be nervously looking at other systems.

https://observation.org/waarneming/v...60595?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/v...60388?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/v...60306?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/v...60241?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/v...93308?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/v...60171?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/v...60104?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/v...69774?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/v...69764?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/v...69728?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/v...70774?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/v...69678?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/v...69636?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/v...61664?_popup=1
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Old Thursday 16th May 2019, 14:32   #77
edenwatcher
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Exactly, but we're both birders who take pictures.
Rob
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Old Thursday 16th May 2019, 15:00   #78
temmie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edenwatcher View Post
Exactly, but we're both birders who take pictures.
Rob
That's true, but I think most on this forum are birders with a camera, and still, I see some people desperately looking for upgrades while they will never make a penny from any shot they take.

Some -amateur / wannabe professional- photographers take their photography way to serious, I see them catering a public of flickr/instagram/FB fans but nothing more (for sure no paid shots) and they still think they have to invest 1000s of euros/dollars/pounds every 2 years in another system to keep up with those that are sponsored by the big brands.

It reminds me a bit of cycling. I am an amateur cyclist competing from time to time, and all I see these days are super expensive bikes with disc brakes (because the pros ride them), but they don't go any faster and they don't make any money from it.
All well if you do it for your own pleasure and each their own hobby, but running like hamsters in a mill, trying to keep up with the rat race spending more than monthly salaries on new stuff that is incrementally better, wouldn't be my definition of pleasure.
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Old Thursday 16th May 2019, 16:14   #79
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Temmie, I am not sure I buy everything you write about cost and weight of mirrorless. I am using Panasonic: g85 and PL 100-400. This is a good enough setup that I get some keepers, even when doing purple martin in flight. So I tried to compare size/cost for a setup to give a similar reach using the nikon PF series as you mentioned. However, to get close I had to go for the PF500 and I chose a not top of the line body, the d7500 (similarly, my camera is not top of the pana line, that would be G9, and I included that camera body as well for the hell of it). So the comparison is (all numbers from DPReview except cost which was Amazon.com):
Weight incl lens Nikon 2180, g85 1490, G9 1643
Reach Nikon 750, g85 800, G9 800
Cost Nikon 4392, g85 2190, G9 2792 (in US$)

I like to have a zoom, and possibly should have hunted for a zoom setup for Nikon but that would certainly be heavier (Tamron 150-600 would have added about 550 grams to the nikon setup but would have brought the cost down to about the same as my g85 setup)

Anyway, this is a bit of a tangent to the original content of this thread

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Old Thursday 16th May 2019, 16:22   #80
Chosun Juan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edenwatcher View Post
Blah, blah, blah. Yet still Canon has by far the largest market share for interchangeable lens cameras.

Rob
Quote:
Originally Posted by edenwatcher View Post
Reappraisal surely means cutting product lines. Those customers won't come back, regardless of the quality of the cameras. Those of us who use DSLRs will have to get used to the fact. It is very difficult to see how things will evolve, meanwhile enjoy what we've got...

Rob
Just like the biggest horse buggy maker ?
https://www.resilience.org/stories/2...g-to-car-smog/
That's a lot of doodoo .... must have been interesting times !

Cutting product lines is a zero sum game. Already as Etudiant has said, you can see the big manufacturers fighting it out for scraps in a significantly declining market - ergo the move to higher profitability FF segments like salmon swimming upstream, and the already evident discounting .....

In my view, rather than fighting it out in a lose-lose situation, the entire industry would be better off banding together to collaborate on a common curved sensor standard and suitable mount standards in considered formats. This would be a far more efficient use of resources delivering a quicker and cheaper change to consumers than the current virtually duplicated designs, minimally different feature sets, and pointless marketing differentiation wasting time, money, effort, and resources.

Unless the industry also addresses connectivity and instant easy processing/ storage/ sharing etc they will continue to lose market share to smartphones.

Curved Mirrorless Sensors, and Diffractive Optics Lenses are the only currently viable technology (with development) that will physically deliver smaller and much lighter photography systems per sensor size format.

This thread was not set up to be a 'Canon bashing' piece - rather the genuine excitement at the prospect of a new flagship APS-C model. What an exercise in frustration being a Canon customer is ! Great lenses (and cutting edge developments in them) - but the 7DII has been getting flogged by the Nikon D500 for more than 3 years now, and loyal customers (or prospective converts) have been getting dumped on from a great height.

I don't think it's too much to ask of a "market share leader" to have a fair dinkum go .......





Chosun

Last edited by Chosun Juan : Thursday 16th May 2019 at 16:26.
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Old Thursday 16th May 2019, 16:47   #81
Chosun Juan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njlarsen View Post
Temmie, I am not sure I buy everything you write about cost and weight of mirrorless. I am using Panasonic: g85 and PL 100-400. This is a good enough setup that I get some keepers, even when doing purple martin in flight. So I tried to compare size/cost for a setup to give a similar reach using the nikon PF series as you mentioned. However, to get close I had to go for the PF500 and I chose a not top of the line body, the d7500 (similarly, my camera is not top of the pana line, that would be G9, and I included that camera body as well for the hell of it). So the comparison is (all numbers from DPReview except cost which was Amazon.com):
Weight incl lens Nikon 2180, g85 1490, G9 1643
Reach Nikon 750, g85 800, G9 800
Cost Nikon 4392, g85 2190, G9 2792 (in US$)

I like to have a zoom, and possibly should have hunted for a zoom setup for Nikon but that would certainly be heavier (Tamron 150-600 would have added about 550 grams to the nikon setup but would have brought the cost down to about the same as my g85 setup)

Anyway, this is a bit of a tangent to the original content of this thread

Niels
Niels, that's quite alright - I think most of us here constantly balance those parameters (weight, performance, cost) to provide the best solution for our needs. There's probably a fair amount of interest in new products and development direction purely from being gearheads too and looking for that next improvement in our equations. Did I mention weight ?! lol.

The Panny's certainly offer some high spec featured bodies (given the physical limitations of the sensor size) - I think even the Nikki D500 has some improvements to make.

The Nikki PF lens range likewise is a bit of a standout performer (wallet stretching cost notwithstanding). About the only thing to say is that f5.6 makes a handy improvement on f6.3/7, especially at the larger sensor format size offering even better subject isolation. It is worthwhile noting that the Nikons also have a 1.3x in-camera crop factor too which brings the PF 500 to 1000mm @f5.6 which is pretty sweet.

It would be interesting to see what Canon users think is a comparable kit to the ones you list and see what the numbers turn out to be in comparison .......




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