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Ultravid, EL, HG, SLC (1 Viewer)

Curtis,

I wonder if this isn't a classic case of the glass half empty vs. half full. If you come to the FL's from binoculars with a larger area of central sharpness you see a loss. If you come from binoculars with a smaller area you see a gain.

Henry
 
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kabsetz said:
We should probably all aspire to be more clear about matters of edge vs central area sharpness. There are two issues being discussed, albeit they are related. One is actual edge sharpness. For simplicity's sake, we might say it is the outermost 40% or so of the viewfield. No wide-angle binocular I have ever seen has a sharp image here. Some, though, are considerably better, others worse. Nikon 8x42 HG and the SE series is much better than average in this respect, so was the 10x40 Victory II, and Leica 10x32 is very good also. Swarovski EL 8.5x42 is perhaps a bit better than average, and most Leica models, both the older and the Ultravids (which have the same optical construction than the older models but improved optical coatings) are below average for premium binoculars. Poor edge sharpness is not particularly significant when viewing birds, and most birders do not bother to twist around their eyes enough to notice it much, let alone be troubled by it. Since edge sharpness is virtually always poor, it is hard to remember exactly how poor it was in a particular binocular, and reliable assesments can only be made by side-by-side comparisions or by taking systematic notes.

The other issue, the one Henry has been talking about and I have made some comments upon, concerns how far from the center does the image retain all or most of the sharpness it achieves in the dead center. Although it is true that we tend to move the binoculars to center any bird or other object we are trying to view, anyone willing to excercise some introspection while viewing will note that their eyes in fact move around the image a lot, and much more than their hands do in trying to maintain central orientation of the object. Therefore, it does make a difference how wide is the "sweet spot", the area where your eyes feel as if no extra work is needed and the image remains 100% or so (in practice, perhaps the area where image sharpness is at or above 90% of the maximum?). In my mesaurements of the Zeiss vs. Nikon SE, there was a rather clear difference in the SE's favor in the width of the area where the eye-measured resolution of a tripod-mounted binocular did not drop noticeably. However, I must add that my visual acuity (visus) is about 1.5-1.6, or about one-and-a-half times better than "average normal vision". For someone with a more average visus, the perceived "sweet spot" would be wider, and for someone with a better visus, narrower. I would like to emphasize, however, that overall I think the FL's exceed the performance of the SE's (by a very small margin), but, like Henry, I'm not sure which I would be more comfortable using in the long run, since the wider sweet spot does make the SE somewhat more effortless for me to use. I also believe that the chief reason why the 8.5x42 EL has such a fine repuation among discerning birders is that due to a wide sweet spot, it provides an immediately accessible and relaxing view, and since the image in other respects is also on a par with other premium binoculars, that ease allows birders to forget the binocular and simply enjoy viewing.
Kimmo

Kimmo,

Your last sentence, which I highlighted, is a perfect description of HOW a bin should function for the user. I heard a similar remark about the EL 8.5X42 EL last week and it is a powerful endorsement.

John
 
Curtis Croulet said:
......and for the most part my reaction has been, "What are these guys talking about? What softness? What 'small sweet spot'?" .
You, me and a lot of other people (especially birders at last weeks birdfair) by the sound of things.

It's a strange world sometimes. We'll keep our FL's and be very happy, and the SE owners can keep theirs and be happy.
 
Andy Bright said:
You, me and a lot of other people (especially birders at last weeks birdfair) by the sound of things.

It's a strange world sometimes. We'll keep our FL's and be very happy, and the SE owners can keep theirs and be happy.


Andy,

I can't wait to get my hands on a pair to see for myself. Until then, here's what I hear being said.

Those who "see" the softness have stated their observations clearly and precisely, almost to a fault. I believe they are faithfully telling us what they see.

Those who say they don't "see" the softness have been rather testy from the beginning of the conversation, and I'm not sure why. If you don't see the same softness in the FL, then saying so seems to be adequate. Why hostility creeps in to the conversation is a mystery to me.

In time, a consensus will develop regarding the FL. Let's hope it's positive.

John
 
John Traynor said:
Kimmo,

Your last sentence, which I highlighted, is a perfect description of HOW a bin should function for the user. I heard a similar remark about the EL 8.5X42 EL last week and it is a powerful endorsement.

John

And it well describes my experience with the FL.
 
John Traynor said:
Andy,

I can't wait to get my hands on a pair to see for myself. Until then, here's what I hear being said.

Those who "see" the softness have stated their observations clearly and precisely, almost to a fault. I believe they are faithfully telling us what they see.

Those who say they don't "see" the softness have been rather testy from the beginning of the conversation, and I'm not sure why. If you don't see the same softness in the FL, then saying so seems to be adequate. Why hostility creeps in to the conversation is a mystery to me.

In time, a consensus will develop regarding the FL. Let's hope it's positive.

John
I think pasions are raised slightly because such a huge emphasis is being placed on this 'hot spot' by those to whom it has proved a problem to (basically Henry, and to a lesser extent, Kimmo). Those who don't see a problem should have a similar say, with equal emphasis (and hopefully no unpleasantness, though I haven't seen anything like that so far?)

The thing is, there are a number of extremely serious birders out there already using these binoculars. To these guys, the bino is effectively part of their body and in almost constant use. From what I have heard, these guys are totally bowled over by the performance and there is no mention of the 'problem' of a small hot spot. Likewise, the majority of those who have tried the FL and have commented on birdforum about it, have also not seen any significant problem.

As with all optics.... try before you buy and trust your own eyes.

regards,
Andy
 
I had a look at the new lighter weight Nikon HGs today. I'm no expert and just go by what my eyes tell me and the news was that these are very classy binoculars. If only Nikon had uprated the design earlier since at this lower weight they would have given Leica and Swarovski a close run over the past few years. However, there was a pair of binoculars there that I thought just shaded out the new HGs - no, not the Zeiss Fls (the dealer didn't have any), but my trusty 4-5 year old 8x32 SEs.

Incidentally I cannot agree more with the comments re. the variablity of individual instruments and always advise those that ask to ask to test a couple of "specimens" before making their final choice. So, did I follow my own advice when recently getting my 62mm Leica? Of course I damn well didn't - just to British and loathe to make a fuss I suppose! And let's not forget that many of those buying in the provinces don't have such easy access to dealers that might have more than one high-end instrument at a time. Mind you the Leica does seem to perform very well! John
 
John Cantelo said:
I had a look at the new lighter weight Nikon HGs today. I'm no expert and just go by what my eyes tell me and the news was that these are very classy binoculars. If only Nikon had uprated the design earlier since at this lower weight they would have given Leica and Swarovski a close run over the past few years. However, there was a pair of binoculars there that I thought just shaded out the new HGs - no, not the Zeiss Fls (the dealer didn't have any), but my trusty 4-5 year old 8x32 SEs.

Incidentally I cannot agree more with the comments re. the variablity of individual instruments and always advise those that ask to ask to test a couple of "specimens" before making their final choice. So, did I follow my own advice when recently getting my 62mm Leica? Of course I damn well didn't - just to British and loathe to make a fuss I suppose! And let's not forget that many of those buying in the provinces don't have such easy access to dealers that might have more than one high-end instrument at a time. Mind you the Leica does seem to perform very well! John

John,

What power did you look at?

The original HG 8X42 was brighter than the SE 8X32 in the shadows of a forest, but the SE was a shade better in color and contrast. Depth of field, obviously, went to the SE.

One thing the original HG sure had was a clear, sharp field. I think the weight and the excessively fast focus was what turned me off to it. Maybe I'd like the HGL better.

John
 
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