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HBWAlive Key; mission accomplished or mission impossible?

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Old Monday 15th June 2020, 08:36   #526
Calalp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PScofield View Post
Regarding T. georginae & T. caroli I am not sure what the evidence that caroli was named after Charles Lucien Bonaparte is but there is a famous Georgina associated with Napolean Bonaparte that it may have amused Bourcier to named one of this pair of species after:

Marguerite-Josephine Weimer who was a famous lover of Napolean (who nicknamed her Georgina after her onstage character Mademosiele Georges).

Whilst it is clear Claude Marie Jules Bourcier was a Napoleanist, one must remember that in 1847 France was still ruled by the July Monarchy and to blatantly honour any Bonaparte may not have been the best political move.

Just a thought.

P
Paul, why "Napolean Bonaparte" and "Napoleanist", why not; Napoleon Bonaparte, and Napoleonist?

Typo/s, or my misinterpretation?

Either way, I have no idea/suggestion on the dedicatee behind georginae. From what I can tell (not much) it could be her, or not.

Maybe Martin has a better candidate, he's been dealing with Hummingbirds (and their Eponyms) for years and years.

/B
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Old Monday 15th June 2020, 08:51   #527
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Mme Catherine Caillard, veuve Sallé
Yes. Now I remember this. Did she not have any more Christian names?
I have no idea, Mark, maybe another question for Martin?

She's been earlier dealt with, by him ("Taphrospilus"), way back in 2015, here.

/B
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Old Monday 15th June 2020, 10:24   #528
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Originally Posted by PScofield View Post
Regarding T. georginae & T. caroli I am not sure what the evidence that caroli was named after Charles Lucien Bonaparte

P
Maybe because he named it as well with common name Troch. de Charles. As well Chlorochrysa calliparaea bourcieri and Geotrygon frenata bourcieri were named by Bonaparte to honor Bourcier.
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Old Monday 15th June 2020, 13:37   #529
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Thanks everyone. When I read the Tr. caroli and georgina article I wondered why he had not named these in the previous article? And in my mind Charles and Georgina seemed like a couple there was something linking them? Hunch. On Wikipedia it says about Georgina "She retired in 1853, and received a pension from Joseph Bonaparte, Napoleon's brother. She died in Passy " in 1867. So she was working in 1847. And of course Joseph was Charles's Father. Not proof but it makes sense.
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Old Monday 15th June 2020, 15:16   #530
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I am not sure of the actress/courtesan Mlle. George as our georginae. She was, apparently, given a pension by Jerome Bonaparte (not Joseph Bonaparte who died 1844), and so her link with the Prince of Canino and an assortment of hummingbirds is tenuous.
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Old Monday 15th June 2020, 15:21   #531
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Thanks James. Dang Wikipedia.
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Old Monday 15th June 2020, 19:17   #532
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Originally Posted by PScofield View Post
Regarding T. georginae & T. caroli I am not sure what the evidence that caroli
@ Paul: As we are back to the Wilson Family (as the hummingbirds have been in their collections) maybe you have the answer to the birth date of William Savory Wilson discussed here?

At least a try to get that solved.
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Old Monday 15th June 2020, 22:32   #533
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Martin Ive seen Wilson , William Thomas , son of William Savory Wilson , Esq . , New Haven , United States ; born 21st December , 1847 . Not what you are looking for.? Also: "Dr. Henry Spencer Spackman was a cousin of William Savory Wilson who owned the land on which St. Clément’s list Church was built. William’s mother was Rebecca Bellerby who married Edward Wilson in 1802. Elizabeth Anne Bellerby was her sister who married Samuel Spackman in 1804. " He had a daughter Mary Louisa Wilson who had a daughter Ada Louise Doty.
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Old Tuesday 16th June 2020, 07:55   #534
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Martin Ive seen Wilson , William Thomas , son of William Savory Wilson , Esq . , New Haven , United States ; born 21st December , 1847 . Not what you are looking for.? Also: "Dr. Henry Spencer Spackman was a cousin of William Savory Wilson who owned the land on which St. Clément’s list Church was built. William’s mother was Rebecca Bellerby who married Edward Wilson in 1802. Elizabeth Anne Bellerby was her sister who married Samuel Spackman in 1804. " He had a daughter Mary Louisa Wilson who had a daughter Ada Louise Doty.
My question was more William Savory Wilson born 1803 or 1805 or...?
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Old Tuesday 16th June 2020, 07:56   #535
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William Savery Wilson was born 9th May 1803 (see attached; source: Haverford College; Haverford, Pennsylvania; Record of Births, 1777-1872; Collection: Philadelphia Yearly Meeting Minutes)

The record was not easy to find as they were Quakers.

Not sure how the spelling got changed nor how some historians considered Edwards's first wife to be called Rebecca Bellerby but marriage records show she was Elisabeth Bellerby.

Note this same record shows that Edward had a son Charles to his second wife Sarah. Could this be the origin of the name T. caroli?

P
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Old Tuesday 16th June 2020, 11:13   #536
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Now you are confusing me even more. What about...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
The latter, Edward Wilson (18081888), is also, still today,...
Thought this is another brother of Thomas Bellerby Wilson and William Savery Wilson. Or was he born a different place?
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Old Tuesday 16th June 2020, 11:50   #537
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Guys, I´m even more (all) confused, having a hard time to follow, in regards to what taxon/name (alt. taxa/names) you're actually dealing with right now.

Is it; georginae, caroli, aliciae, catharinae, addae or is it williami ...?

Bewildered.

/B
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Old Tuesday 16th June 2020, 12:00   #538
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Guys, I´m even more (all) confused, having a hard time to follow, in regards to what taxon/name (alt. taxa/names) you're actually dealing with right now.

Is it; georginae, caroli, aliciae, catharinae, addae or is it williami ...?

Bewildered.

/B
Sorry think my fault as I did not explain how I came to Wilson family. OD of caroli and georginae have a link to the Wilson family (as in their collection) therefore I linked a still pending question about the birth of William Savery Wilson williami which was still an open question at least for me. Now this new document appeared and Edward Wilson is not mentioned in there. I think/thought it is a brother of William Savery Wilson and Thomas Bellerby Wilson but this document did not contain him as a brother.

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Old Tuesday 16th June 2020, 12:28   #539
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Ok, fair enough Martin, so we're suddenly back at/with "T. [Trochilus] Williami" [today's Viridian Metaltail Metallura williami DeLATTRE & BOURCIER 1846], as earlier dealt with back in April, here (with link to the OD, in post #1), and the obscure William S. (Savory/Savery?) Wilson, though I'd be surprised if the Wilson Family Papers, kept at the University of Delawere Library (here), doesn't have his name right, i.e. "William Savory Wilson (d.1870)", ... but, who knows?

On top of what's been said in this thread (and earlier threads), also see here (hopefully of some use/help [?], and good luck following it, it's a lot to read, with twists and turns, in different/various Eras, with several similar names and namesakes intertwined)

Keep digging & good luck pin-pointing him!

/B
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Old Tuesday 16th June 2020, 21:15   #540
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Don't panic chaps. There is no great mystery here you just have to understand that 2/3 of everything written on the internet about early 19th C genealogy in America is complete fiction.

Edward Wilson (1772-1843)

Had 8 children to at least 2 wives.

First Wife Elizabeth Belleby (1802)

William Savery (1803-1870)
Mary (1804-)
Thomas Belleby (1807-1865)

The family changed Quaker meeting house for several years hence the new record (attached)

Edward (1808-1888)
Rathmel (1810-1890)
Josiah (1812-)

Second marriage to Sarah (m.1814)

Elizabeth (1817-)
Charles (1818-1884)

Cheers P
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 00:06   #541
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Quote:
Edward Wilson (1872-1843)
Sorry, seems to be a typo here

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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 06:58   #542
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Thank's Paul for your clarification.

P.S. At least I wasn't in panic mode. I just was curious why he wasn't mentioned. But now clearly shown evidence by you.
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 18:36   #543
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Great job, Paul!

Onwards, can we (please) keep this thread on its track, and focus on its original intent, to find and solve, the names listed by James (the 'Mission' itself). For anyone (like myself) who is trying to keep track of the various developments in this (to say the least) looooooong thread it's tricky, close to impossible, to keep track of it all, if, and when, we're lead astray, on various sidetracks, over and over again. It isn't too complicated to start a new thread, on any other new topic, is it?

Either way, I'm not (truly) complaining , I'm glad we're all into it, that anyone and everyone still keeps digging into all of these, and those, various obscure names, with such enthusiasm, and I sure wouldn't want it in any other way, such activities are nothing but desired. Keep it up!

Thereby, let's return to the unsolved "T. [Trochilus] Georginæ" BOURCIER 1847, alt. "T. [Trochilus] Mariæ" BOURCIER & MULSANT 1846, a k a Le C. [Colibrie] de Marie (in French], as in Mark's #522, or even the generic name Bathilda REICHENBACH 1862 (as dealt with in #499, 508-509) ... or any other of the many, many remaing ones, from James's first List/s (see post #461, and subsequent posts, of course).

Any progress?

Björn

PS. Also keep track of the frequent updates in thread BOW Key.
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 06:41   #544
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I agree it is hard to follow. But somehow an issue of the initial design of this thread. If you have that many open questions in one thread this will of course lead to the fact that side tracks will open as the focus is not just on one topic. In case of Wilsons as they are mentioned in OD of caroli. Therefore I think....

Quote:
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Note this same record shows that Edward had a son Charles to his second wife Sarah. Could this be the origin of the name T. caroli?
P
... is a very valid point as in the collection of Edward Wilson.

Bourcier named many Wilson family members. Why not Charles Wilson?

In case of georginae I am not 100 % sure who the T.B. is.

Quote:
(fait partie de la collection de T.B.)
I don't think Thomas Belleby as I miss the W. But might be a typo in PZL as it is J.B. (Jules Bourcier) in Revue zoologique.

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Old Monday 22nd June 2020, 05:27   #545
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HORSFIELD,
• urica as in "Merops Urica" 1822
Reichenbach says the javanese name for this bird is Pirik.
https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover . Page 64.
Possible Horsfield heard Uric for Pirik?
Zoonomen says Merops is male?
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Old Monday 22nd June 2020, 09:59   #546
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Mark, I don't follow ...

The dear old Key (of 9th of May) told us just about the same:
Quote:
urica
Etymology undiscovered; perhaps from the local name Pirik on Java; "Spec. 2. Merops Urica mihi. M. olivaceo-viridis nitens, ...
What's the new view-point ... ?
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Old Monday 22nd June 2020, 19:09   #547
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I still do not have access to BOW WOW WOW
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Old Monday 22nd June 2020, 21:51   #548
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I still do not have access to BOW ...
Mark, who does?

And even if so, even if we had access, it wouldn't help, or change much, as the dear old (HBW Alive) Key hasn't moved in with Cornell's Birds of the World yet, right now there is no BoW Key (at least not dealing with Etymology), the Key itself is in transit, in limbo ... and, as I understand it, so it will be (probably) for months and months. We will simply have to wait. Like the say; patience is a virtue (even if ever soooooo boring).

At this point, in this thread, if we're to solve James's last remaining ones before then, we're stuck with the attached PDF in post #461 (as well as subsequent posts, of course). And the updates in the more recent BOW Key thread (here).

Keep at it!

/B
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Old Tuesday 23rd June 2020, 08:28   #549
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Horsfield's urica (in Latin)

Inspired by Mark's latest post, I also gave Horsfield's urica yet another go [link to OD in post #383 (with some earlier unfounded guesses of mine )], ... and this time I think that I might actually have found something (even if I don't understand much of it).

If we look in Holyoake's Latin Dictionarium ..., the same work that helped us find and solve Linnaeus's velia a couple of weeks ago (in posts #516-517), we might, possibly (?) find a solution also on this one ...

In this hard-to-read book, from 1639 (here), we find the following word/entry (my blue), and excuse any misinterpreted letters:
Quote:
Eruca, ... urica, quod ignitæ sit virtutis, & in cibo ...
... or whatever it says, and onwards ... !?

Followed by some words in Old-school English:
Quote:
"A palmer worine, also the be[unreadable] rocket. Hor."
"Hor.," for Horace ... with a rocket?


Also Matthiae Martini's somewhat later Lexicon... (from 1698) lists this word (in the exact same way) here:
Quote:
Urica, vitium fatorum, Plin. lib. 18, cap. 17, Commune ...
Either way, apparently, whatever it means, there seem to be such a word (or/alt. an inflected form of it), in Latin!

Apparently used by Classic authors, like Horace, and/or/alt. Pliny, and Theophrastus.

If Horsfield would have known of this word two hundred years later, in 1822, is (of course) a whole different thing. But I wouldn't be surprised if a scholar like Thomas Horsfield would have been familiar with it.

However; does either one of them make any sense? On a Bee-eater?

If not, simply ignore this post.

Björn
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Old Tuesday 23rd June 2020, 15:56   #550
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A Palmer's worine I think is the palm frond a palmer, traveller to the holy land would carry? When I searched google for urica our robot overlord thought I meant Eureka! Which means I found it? Horsfield was an American? Thank you Björn for the attachment. This feels so underground like passing Samizadt behind the iron curtain.
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