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Old Monday 8th June 2020, 07:17   #26
James Lowther
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If Frank is reading I find the new dark green text to denote accepted proposals on the proposed splits/lumps page quite hard to spot. The bright green shading was easier!
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If you’re reading - thanks!
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Old Saturday 13th June 2020, 07:50   #27
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Two more proposed splits

June 12 Post proposed split of White-faced Plover C. dealbatus from Kentish Plover.

June 12 Post proposed split of Pale-faced Bulbul P. leucops from Flavescent Bulbul. (Borneo)



I'll make four all told, when Adam does his next Scythebill update
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Old Saturday 13th June 2020, 12:02   #28
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Proposed split doesn't mean it's going to be accepted, so I wouldn't count your eggs before they are hatched
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Old Saturday 13th June 2020, 13:17   #29
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There's a very interesting and readable article about White-faced Plover taxonomy here: https://avianhybrids.wordpress.com/2...-faced-plover/
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Old Saturday 13th June 2020, 13:33   #30
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There's a very interesting and readable article about White-faced Plover taxonomy here: https://avianhybrids.wordpress.com/2...-faced-plover/
Yes, very interesting! One flaw though. From what I can tell they only compare dealbatus with East Asian Kentish. The differences in morphology (and genetics) could thus be less than between other populations.
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Old Saturday 13th June 2020, 16:28   #31
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Proposed split doesn't mean it's going to be accepted, so I wouldn't count your eggs before they are hatched
These eggs were laid a while ago, fairly sure they'll sail through.

I wonder what the % of rejected proposals is, anyone give us a figure, I'll bet it's low?
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Old Saturday 13th June 2020, 17:11   #32
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I wonder what the % of rejected proposals is, anyone give us a figure, I'll bet it's low?
So I looked at the Proposed Splits/Lumps page on the IOC website. On that page there are proposed (but not accepted) splits dating back to 2015; there are other pages with older data as well. It looks like proposed splits are either accepted or left as proposed, although the text at the top of the page says

Quote:
Others (grey) will be retained as active candidates or deleted with the option of future reconsideration.
Obviously you can't tell how many proposed splits have been actually deleted from that page, but for example there was a proposal in 2015 to split Systellura longirostris which was rejected by the SACC. So it's effectively dead. That's just one example. But probably there's not much deletion going on.

So I can't give you a figure for that page (not without some tedious work of examining every proposed but not accepted split). But speaking of SACC, they have a page which documents acceptances and rejections of their proposals: PROPOSAL ROSTER. I did a crude count of the two categories and got about 610 acceptances and 270 rejections. That's about a 70% acceptance rate.

("Crude" means that my browser counted the number of times that "PASSED" and "DID NOT PASS" occurred in the page. Not exact but pretty close.)
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Old Saturday 13th June 2020, 17:29   #33
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These eggs were laid a while ago, ...

Talking of eggs laid long ago, when are Common Gull and Mew Gull going to be split? The current comment on the IOC page:
Quote:
Genetically distinct Short-billed Gull previously split from Common /Mew Gull (AOU Sibley 1996, Zink et al. 1995, Olsen & Larsson 2003, BNA). BNA makes the point that Zink’s paper only looked at mtDNA differences between kamtschatschensis and brachyrhynchus. A study also incorporating nominate canus is needed to round out the picture and because some have proposed (e.g. S&M, 1990) that the species break might be between kamtschatschensis and canus/brachyrhynchus.
is long out of date, as nominate canus has been analysed; the break is between brachyrhynchus and the rest (e.g. Sternkopf 2011, Adriaens & Gibbins 2016).


Also with the recent split of Cassia Crossbill, the crossbills need further splitting; American Red Crossbills (Loxia [curvirostra] minor et al.) are more closely related to Cassia Crossbill than they are to Eurasian Common Crossbills (Loxia curvirostra sensu stricto, including other Eurasian subspp.), while conversely, European Common Crossbills are more closely related to Parrot Crossbill, than they are to American Red Crossbills.
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Old Saturday 13th June 2020, 18:13   #34
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So I looked at the Proposed Splits/Lumps page on the IOC website. On that page there are proposed (but not accepted) splits dating back to 2015; there are other pages with older data as well. It looks like proposed splits are either accepted or left as proposed, although the text at the top of the page says



Obviously you can't tell how many proposed splits have been actually deleted from that page, but for example there was a proposal in 2015 to split Systellura longirostris which was rejected by the SACC. So it's effectively dead. That's just one example. But probably there's not much deletion going on.

So I can't give you a figure for that page (not without some tedious work of examining every proposed but not accepted split). But speaking of SACC, they have a page which documents acceptances and rejections of their proposals: PROPOSAL ROSTER. I did a crude count of the two categories and got about 610 acceptances and 270 rejections. That's about a 70% acceptance rate.

("Crude" means that my browser counted the number of times that "PASSED" and "DID NOT PASS" occurred in the page. Not exact but pretty close.)
Thanks Paul.
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Old Sunday 14th June 2020, 11:36   #35
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Originally Posted by Paul Clapham View Post
So I looked at the Proposed Splits/Lumps page on the IOC website. On that page there are proposed (but not accepted) splits dating back to 2015; there are other pages with older data as well. It looks like proposed splits are either accepted or left as proposed, although the text at the top of the page says



Obviously you can't tell how many proposed splits have been actually deleted from that page, but for example there was a proposal in 2015 to split Systellura longirostris which was rejected by the SACC. So it's effectively dead. That's just one example. But probably there's not much deletion going on.

So I can't give you a figure for that page (not without some tedious work of examining every proposed but not accepted split). But speaking of SACC, they have a page which documents acceptances and rejections of their proposals: PROPOSAL ROSTER. I did a crude count of the two categories and got about 610 acceptances and 270 rejections. That's about a 70% acceptance rate.

("Crude" means that my browser counted the number of times that "PASSED" and "DID NOT PASS" occurred in the page. Not exact but pretty close.)
I wonder if IOC actually has those statistics at hand...they do follow this forum apparently, so maybe someone can chime in.

I can only go with anecdotal information, but I am fairly sure some of the very first proposed splits for IOC still haven't been passed. Really the proposed splits, especially early on, come down to "someone says this is different, so lets note that and maybe figure out if we agree"
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Old Sunday 14th June 2020, 11:41   #36
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Talking of eggs laid long ago, when are Common Gull and Mew Gull going to be split? The current comment on the IOC page:
is long out of date, as nominate canus has been analysed; the break is between brachyrhynchus and the rest (e.g. Sternkopf 2011, Adriaens & Gibbins 2016).


Also with the recent split of Cassia Crossbill, the crossbills need further splitting; American Red Crossbills (Loxia [curvirostra] minor et al.) are more closely related to Cassia Crossbill than they are to Eurasian Common Crossbills (Loxia curvirostra sensu stricto, including other Eurasian subspp.), while conversely, European Common Crossbills are more closely related to Parrot Crossbill, than they are to American Red Crossbills.
I mean if you wanted to get folks to act upon either of these, a simple way would be to submit a checklist change proposal to NACC, as both of these situations affect North American taxa, and IOC closely watches both checklists.
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Old Sunday 14th June 2020, 11:44   #37
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Proposed split doesn't mean it's going to be accepted, so I wouldn't count your eggs before they are hatched
You were saying?

June 14 Accept proposed split of Pale-faced Bulbul P. leucops from Flavescent Bulbul
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 05:56   #38
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June 16 Post PS of Haida Gwaii Saw-whet Owl from Northern Saw-whet Owl (NACC 2020-B-8).

June 16 Post PL of Northwestern Crow with American Crow (Slager et al. 2020; NACC 2020-C-15)
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 13:06   #39
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The American Birding Association podcast had a recent episode mostly on the proposed splits. They actually made a pretty solid case for the Saw-whet Owl split, which seems a lot more supported than I thought.

Also I admit I might be slightly warming up to the idea of simplifying the Scrub-Jay names. Although I would agree that Santa Cruz Jay makes more sense than Island Jay
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 14:00   #40
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Also I admit I might be slightly warming up to the idea of simplifying the Scrub-Jay names. Although I would agree that Santa Cruz Jay makes more sense than Island Jay
My only issue w/ that one is that there's a city of the same name in CA, which is the place most California residents will probably think the name refers to. Although a bit long, I think Santa Cruz Island Jay would remove this potential confusion.
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 17:32   #41
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True...despite actually attending a wedding there, I forgot that city existed!
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 20:34   #42
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Looking at the current draft of version 10.2 species updates, I see the Subalpine Warbler split (mentioned as accepted on on May 6th) still isn't included.
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 23:19   #43
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June 16 Post PS of Haida Gwaii Saw-whet Owl from Northern Saw-whet Owl (NACC 2020-B-8).
Hopefully the IOC list would take this opportunity to change all instances of "Queen Charlotte Is." in their range descriptions to "Haida Gwaii" -- the name change has been official for 10 years now. Even if the split is declined.
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 15:24   #44
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Hopefully the IOC list would take this opportunity to change all instances of "Queen Charlotte Is." in their range descriptions to "Haida Gwaii" -- the name change has been official for 10 years now. Even if the split is declined.
If you have feedback, you should just email them -[email protected] - it's a lot more likely to help than posting here and hoping.
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 16:55   #45
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I did that a year and a half ago.
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 17:00   #46
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Hopefully the IOC list would take this opportunity to change all instances of "Queen Charlotte Is." in their range descriptions to "Haida Gwaii" -- the name change has been official for 10 years now. Even if the split is declined.
What a fascinating island though! Never heard of it, now I don't understand how I kept overlooking it on the map, it's so big. If it gets its own Owl species, then it looks like a brilliant destination (if we can ever travel, that is).
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Old Friday 19th June 2020, 01:43   #47
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Hopefully the IOC list would take this opportunity to change all instances of "Queen Charlotte Is." in their range descriptions to "Haida Gwaii" -- the name change has been official for 10 years now. Even if the split is declined.
Done today. Will show up in 10.2. Thanks!
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Old Friday 19th June 2020, 07:21   #48
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Done today. Will show up in 10.2. Thanks!

Any chance of some action on these too please?


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Talking of eggs laid long ago, when are Common Gull and Mew Gull going to be split? The current comment on the IOC page is long out of date, as nominate canus has been analysed; the break is between brachyrhynchus and the rest (e.g. Sternkopf 2011, Adriaens & Gibbins 2016).


Also with the recent split of Cassia Crossbill, the crossbills need further splitting; American Red Crossbills (Loxia [curvirostra] minor et al.) are more closely related to Cassia Crossbill than they are to Eurasian Common Crossbills (Loxia curvirostra sensu stricto, including other Eurasian subspp.), while conversely, European Common Crossbills are more closely related to Parrot Crossbill, than they are to American Red Crossbills.
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Old Friday 19th June 2020, 07:27   #49
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Any chance of some action on these too please?
And don't forget the difference in plumage and vocalisation between Two-barred and White-winged Crossbills.

Will Eastern and Western Willets ever be revisited or will they remain lumped for the foreseeable future?

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Old Friday 19th June 2020, 10:22   #50
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And don't forget the difference in plumage and vocalisation between Two-barred and White-winged Crossbills.
Yes - they're as distinct from each other, as Common and Red are from each other. Additionally (and more importantly), White-winged is genetically closer to Hispaniolan, than it is to Two-barred



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Will Eastern and Western Willets ever be revisited or will they remain lumped for the foreseeable future?
I suspect not; seem to remember the genetic differences were pretty small. But then again, they used to say that about Whimbrels, until some further research found new distinctions missed by earlier research. So it's a matter of wait for someone to do some more research.
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