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AOU-NACC Proposals 2019

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Old Friday 3rd July 2020, 18:09   #151
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Well I can assure you that you don't, maybe in your little bubble.

You illustrate my previous point well, 100% of your posts are on taxonomy and nomenclature, at least the ones I could be bothered to check.
Seems like you can be arsed with me there. Do make up your mind!

Anyway, I'm not interested in engaging with you about fripperies because, well, I just can't see us ever becoming friends - and I don't imagine anyone else is interested in reading it. I am, however, compelled to challenge nationalistic claptrap when I come across it, so I guess I'll chat with you soon.
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Old Friday 3rd July 2020, 20:42   #152
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I want to answer in a very different direction to where most others have gone. To me it feels like people want to change bird names because the is not dangerous to them, while if they changed something that actually matters, it might upset some of their friends, people they go to church with, etc.

It would be better to start doing things that actually matter:
Figure out who in politics would be willing and able to actually change something and start voting for them
Figure out if your church is filled with anti-diversity people and leave it if that is the case
Work on making hires in your organization welcoming to people of diversity
Etc.

Finally, I see nothing in the description of McCown that should make him a target for renaming, as it is argued in a previous post.

Niels
It's not an either/or thing. You can suggest renaming things AND protest/boycott/support liberal candidates.

I am against wholesale discarding of patronyms without good reason. But there are some folks that could be consider to be problematic at best. Take the "Scott" of Scott's Oriole. He was simply the military head of an expedition, not an ornithologist, and further more was heavily involved in the Trail of Tears,a pretty abysmal act of genocide carried out by Native Americans. It's a common name that doesn't carry any real scientific value in the long run, provides no useful information on identification/behavior/range/ecology. So whats the big deal about changing the name?

And as a friend of mine who is also a birder of color said on this...if people aren't willing to consider simple things like this, what hope do we have of getting people to support more major changes in society?
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Old Friday 3rd July 2020, 21:51   #153
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We can hope it is truly being combined, but my impression is that more often than not it is an easy excuse to calm the conscience.


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Old Friday 3rd July 2020, 22:29   #154
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We can hope it is truly being combined, but my impression is that more often than not it is an easy excuse to calm the conscience.


Niels
I don't think it's an excuse to not do anything else, but it is something that is easier to implement. Just because something is easy to do doesn't mean it's not worth doing.
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 00:08   #155
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I don't think it's an excuse to not do anything else, but it is something that is easier to implement. Just because something is easy to do doesn't mean it's not worth doing.
Sometimes that is exactly what it means because it detracts from those things that actually means something.

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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 04:55   #156
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Seems like you can be arsed with me there. Do make up your mind!

Anyway, I'm not interested in engaging with you about fripperies because, well, I just can't see us ever becoming friends - and I don't imagine anyone else is interested in reading it. I am, however, compelled to challenge nationalistic claptrap when I come across it, so I guess I'll chat with you soon.
Just another way for people like you, to deny an opinion when they can't use racist, homophobe or xenophobe, thank you for showing your colours.

That's it from me on this and no, we won't ever be friends, you could learn a lot from your idols in the US about patriotism and I despise pretention.
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 06:59   #157
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Sometimes that is exactly what it means because it detracts from those things that actually means something.

Niels
But who gets to decide what is meaningful?

That the voices of certain demographics are heard (and considered meaningful), while others are disempowered, is key to this whole discussion.

Incredible, positive social change is happening around us right now and the use of language is a significant part of that. Surely discussing dubious bird nomenclature on this forum is a small but helpful contribution - and it doesn't preclude action in other areas.
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 07:32   #158
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I'm helping with a small part of the back research to this proposal, making a catalogue of who exactly the people are that have birds named after them - it's a big task and we're only beginning to scratch the surface, but even so far the list includes:

Murderers - most often of indiginous people
Racists
Slave owners
Antisemites
Phrenologists
Anti-vaccination advocates
Pro-Colonialism Advocates
Colonialist Soldiers
Colonialist Missionaries
Colonialist Governers
Functionally State-sponsored Human Traffickers
People guilty of what would now be considered Crimes Against Humanity and/or War Crimes
Grave Robbers
A guy who allegedly bought a girl and forced people to eat her so he could watch
Kidnappers
Rapists
A member of a family whose nobility started with a guy who weaponised smallpox against Indiginous people
A guy who supported a local warlord
An associate of Custer
A man who drove one of his servants to suicide
Plagiarists

Now in fairness, we are also finding a few really genuinely cool people in there too, but that doesn't balance out the fact that there are a lot of terrible people - including some big names in the field - who if you looked at their rap sheet, you'd definitely want in prison. Should be be "honoring" these people?
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 09:46   #159
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I'm helping with a small part of the back research to this proposal,

Now in fairness, we are also finding a few really genuinely cool people in there too,
With such an extensive and far-reaching list of early 21st century views, are you sure you have looked hard enough at these cool people? What were their views on trans-gender people? Did they eat meat? What was their record on animal rights activism?
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 09:48   #160
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As it was foretold.......
Never mind the apparently innocent McCown, I am surprised that some fastidious soul has not protested against the use of 'Longspur,' with its obvious connotations of the whip-wielding, jack-booted and spurred overseer! It is absurd that we should be expected to deny our history and cultural heritage to placate a vociferous and readily offended minority. Please do not let the inmates take over the asylum.
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 10:18   #161
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As it was foretold.......
Never mind the apparently innocent McCown, I am surprised that some fastidious soul has not protested against the use of 'Longspur,' with its obvious connotations of the whip-wielding, jack-booted and spurred overseer! It is absurd that we should be expected to deny our history and cultural heritage to placate a vociferous and readily offended minority. Please do not let the inmates take over the asylum.
And we're back with the catastrophising... and an interesting perspective on where 'denial' is situated in this narrative.
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 11:30   #162
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..., I am surprised that some fastidious soul has not protested against the use of 'Longspur,' ....
But does anyone call it 'Longspur,'? How do they pronounce the comma?
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 11:46   #163
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Originally Posted by Alexjh1 View Post
I'm helping with a small part of the back research to this proposal, making a catalogue of who exactly the people are that have birds named after them - it's a big task and we're only beginning to scratch the surface, but even so far the list includes:

Murderers - most often of indiginous people
Racists
Slave owners
Antisemites
Phrenologists
Anti-vaccination advocates
Pro-Colonialism Advocates
Colonialist Soldiers
Colonialist Missionaries
Colonialist Governers
Functionally State-sponsored Human Traffickers
People guilty of what would now be considered Crimes Against Humanity and/or War Crimes
Grave Robbers
A guy who allegedly bought a girl and forced people to eat her so he could watch
Kidnappers
Rapists
A member of a family whose nobility started with a guy who weaponised smallpox against Indiginous people
A guy who supported a local warlord
An associate of Custer
A man who drove one of his servants to suicide
Plagiarists

Now in fairness, we are also finding a few really genuinely cool people in there too, but that doesn't balance out the fact that there are a lot of terrible people - including some big names in the field - who if you looked at their rap sheet, you'd definitely want in prison. Should be be "honoring" these people?
You know, it would be nice to actually see some names applied to these and the actual links. Some of these look very much like broad stroke categorizations, especially "guy who knew Custer" and "Guy related to folks who used small pox".
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 13:52   #164
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As it was foretold.......
Never mind the apparently innocent McCown, I am surprised that some fastidious soul has not protested against the use of 'Longspur,' with its obvious connotations of the whip-wielding, jack-booted and spurred overseer! It is absurd that we should be expected to deny our history and cultural heritage to placate a vociferous and readily offended minority. Please do not let the inmates take over the asylum.
James, Des,
I was beggining to think I was the only person left in the real World, welcome!
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 21:59   #165
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James, Des and Andy, me too or can I not say that these days?
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 22:51   #166
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You know...2020 is just a complete trashfire of the year. We've become so polarized that there is no middle ground.

I feel like I am the voice of reason online in various places, where I am taking a stance of "Hey, lets stop and consider if some of the names are problematic and focus on those. Meanwhile one side is arguing that names and the English language are sacrosant and how dare we think of naming anything for "political correctness".

Meanwhile the other side is RENAME EVERYTHING NOW AND IF YOU HAVE ANY CONCERNS YOU ARE A RACIST. I seriously just read a twitter post saying we need to get rid of ALL common names and just use indigenous language names, because even calling something a name in English is apparently colonialism.
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 23:43   #167
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I seriously just read a twitter post saying we need to get rid of ALL common names and just use indigenous language names, because even calling something a name in English is apparently colonialism.
Was the post in English? If yes, he's hoisted himself on his own petard [alert! French word!!!]


Of course in England, English is indigenous . . . . or is it??? (must dig out my palaeolithic Neanderthal language dictionary and start learning it)
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 23:57   #168
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My biggest issue with this current obsession with getting rid of all patronyms is that the general sentiment is that the idea of commemorating any western scientist is bad, which in turn feeds into a narrative that science itself is colonial, and that perhaps it and its findings can be disregarded.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 00:18   #169
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You know, it would be nice to actually see some names applied to these and the actual links. Some of these look very much like broad stroke categorizations, especially "guy who knew Custer" and "Guy related to folks who used small pox".
I agree that judging a person by what a family member has done seems rather ridiculous. It is like blaming Mary Trump for what her uncle is doing.

Niels
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 00:50   #170
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But who gets to decide what is meaningful?

That the voices of certain demographics are heard (and considered meaningful), while others are disempowered, is key to this whole discussion.

Incredible, positive social change is happening around us right now and the use of language is a significant part of that. Surely discussing dubious bird nomenclature on this forum is a small but helpful contribution - and it doesn't preclude action in other areas.
Have you ever actually heard any number of minority people talk about bird names as a problem?

Just to mention one story I have heard from an African American: being stopped by a police person, having both hands visible on the steering wheel and having to beg the police person to not shoot him on the spot. Those are the kind of issues that to me are much more important than bird names at this time. Once that kind of problems as well as those with underpayment and lack of access to jobs are solved, then we can move to next level.

Niels
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 05:14   #171
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Have you ever actually heard any number of minority people talk about bird names as a problem?

Just to mention one story I have heard from an African American: being stopped by a police person, having both hands visible on the steering wheel and having to beg the police person to not shoot him on the spot. Those are the kind of issues that to me are much more important than bird names at this time. Once that kind of problems as well as those with underpayment and lack of access to jobs are solved, then we can move to next level.

Niels
Totally true, this is all being driven by the looney left. Perhaps we need a survey at the next BLM march, to see who has even heard of McCown et al.

Slightly different with a word that is simply offensive but even then, the group/s affected, may not even be aware of e.g Hottentot Teal?

I know of only one, clear cut case whet a name change is unquestionably required and it's a butterly in Asia, common name 'The N****'' which obviously can't stand and is, being replaced but I still have books where the name is used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orsotriaena_medus
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 07:37   #172
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Totally true, this is all being driven by the looney left. Perhaps we need a survey at the next BLM march, to see who has even heard of McCown et al.

Slightly different with a word that is simply offensive but even then, the group/s affected, may not even be aware of e.g Hottentot Teal?

I know of only one, clear cut case whet a name change is unquestionably required and it's a butterly in Asia, common name 'The N****'' which obviously can't stand and is, being replaced but I still have books where the name is used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orsotriaena_medus
Because it's all about you isn't it?

What you've heard of, what matters to you, what your political views are, your idea of what is and is not "real".

Maybe you should go along to a BLM demo - try understanding how life is for people whose societal position isn't constantly validated by Western power structures. Yep, that's the majority of people, not the comfortable minority who get to decide what's important.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 08:25   #173
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Because it's all about you isn't it?

What you've heard of, what matters to you, what your political views are, your idea of what is and is not "real".

Maybe you should go along to a BLM demo - try understanding how life is for people whose societal position isn't constantly validated by Western power structures. Yep, that's the majority of people, not the comfortable minority who get to decide what's important.
You mean people like you when you speak of deciding what's important?

I said it before and I'll say it again, despite Liberal politics being rejected, World over, people like you, seem to get their way more often than not.

You continually come up with new ways to find how the white man has oppressed or disrepected people, people are sick of it and for the record, the most disavantaged and low achieving group in the UK? White, working class males.

And yes, of course 'what I've heard of' matters to me, as it shapes the thought process of every, single person. Give me another example then such as the one I quoted above, which is so patently offensive, across the board and not to a miniscule minority of die hard liberals?

Here's a quote for you which clearly, explains how the real World, perceive you and your kind.

'Mathew Goodwin ‘Why Labour lost the Election’.

‘A large number of voters left behind, not just economically which is where the Left goes wrong, they can only view this in terms of economics but actually they felt left behind in terms of their values. They felt there had been a new set of culturally, socially liberal values that they neither shared nor respected, that were now being imposed on them by political elites in the media and they felt they couldn’t relate to those values whether it be strong support for either the EU or large scale migration and all the new identity politics’.

Labour were warned in this study that they were at risk from ‘social conservatism’, in their arrogance, they ignored the warning.

‘The left has lost the first ‘culture war’
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 08:41   #174
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You mean people like you when you speak of deciding what's important?

I said it before and I'll say it again, despite Liberal politics being rejected, World over, people like you, seem to get their way more often than not.

You continually come up with new ways to find how the white man has oppressed or disrepected people, people are sick of it and for the record, the most disavantaged and low achieving group in the UK? White, working class males.

And yes, of course 'what I've heard of' matters to me, as it shapes the thought process of every, single person. Give me another example then such as the one I quoted above, which is so patently offensive, across the board and not to a miniscule minority of die hard liberals?

Here's a quote for you which clearly, explains how the real World, perceive you and your kind.

'Mathew Goodwin ‘Why Labour lost the Election’.

‘A large number of voters left behind, not just economically which is where the Left goes wrong, they can only view this in terms of economics but actually they felt left behind in terms of their values. They felt there had been a new set of culturally, socially liberal values that they neither shared nor respected, that were now being imposed on them by political elites in the media and they felt they couldn’t relate to those values whether it be strong support for either the EU or large scale migration and all the new identity politics’.

Labour were warned in this study that they were at risk from ‘social conservatism’, in their arrogance, they ignored the warning.

‘The left has lost the first ‘culture war’
Yes, I know all that already and actually agree with some of it.

You don't engage with what I'm saying - instead you just respond generically, like you're having some phantom argument with Jeremy Corbyn.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 10:22   #175
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I started learning scientific names for South American birds as I thought it would help communication with ornithologists there. Then I discovered the scientific names were changing more rapidly than the common (English language) ones so I stopped bothering. This proposal, to remove patronyms, will make the common names just as labile so maybe I shouldn't bother learning them either...

Re: nasty people in the past. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...
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