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Some doubts on Prévost

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Old Monday 2nd May 2016, 13:48   #1
Taphrospilus
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Some doubts on Prévost

As per HBW Alive of today:

Quote:
prevostiana / prevostianus / prevostii

● Florent Prévost (or Prévôt) (1794-1870) French museum artist (syn. Amblycercus australis, syn. Amblycercus holosericeus, Anthracothorax).
● Alphonse Prévost (fl. 1850) French artist, ornithologist (Euryceros, syn. Streptopelia picturata).
1) I doubt that Florent Prévost have ever been an museum artist. He was an employee of the museum but usually the plates with Prévost signature are with an A. Prévost e.g. see here.
2) So the second man was the only painter of the museum and his full name was Lucien Alphonse Prévost to find here.

Leads me to the next questions. I wonder if Euryceros is really for Lucien Alphonse Prévost. Here OD and here the plate. At least I see see no hint to which Prévost it was dedicated. But see here. Lesson got the specimen from Florent Prévost and the plate here was from Prêtre (and not from A. Prévost)

On Streptopelia picturata I have as well doubts. If we look here Bonaparte mentioned in the species described before Florent. Another article with the name (but different spelling) here. This makes sense to me as Florent Prévost published as well about pigeons. (Les pigeons. Vol. 2 together with Antoinette Paulette Jacqueline Knip).

I haven't checked the Florent Prévost ones. So it is still possible that there are dedications to Lucien Alphonse Prévost the artist. Why they know here that he was born at 6 octobre 1799, I have no clue.

PS. Amblycercus holosericeus australis or Amblycercus holosericeus = Amblycercus prevostii is in fact for Florent Prévost here plate and here is mentioned his name. Anthracothorax prevostii here as well.

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Old Monday 2nd May 2016, 15:24   #2
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This is from C. E. Jackson, 1999, Dictionary of Bird Artists of the World, p. 399:
"PRÉVOST, Alphonse fl. 1830-1850 French artist and ornithologist who prepared several sets of bird paintings for French records of their voyages of discovery. He was the artist of the ornithological section of the voyage of La Bonite in 1841, the artist in the report on the voyage of La Coquille by R P Lesson 1826-30, and the voyage of the Astrolabe by J C P Quoy 1830-33. When M A P O Desmurs planned a continuation of Buffon's great work, he employed Prévost to do 24 of the coloured lithographs and P L Oudart 48, for Iconographie Ornithologique 1845-49. He worked at the natural history museum in Paris. A helmet bird Euryceros prevosti was named after him.

PRÉVOST, Florent d. 1870 French naturalist who worked at the natural history museum, Paris from 1832-70 as an artist. A subspecies of Ptilonopus [sic] mercierii was named for him in 1849, and the green-breasted mango, a humming-bird species, Anthracothorax prevostii in 1832. He worked on birds taken to France from the voyage round the world of the corvette La Bonite for nine colour plates. Another two plates, of a Turdus and an Anthus were painted by him for Magasin de Zoologie 1836."
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Old Monday 2nd May 2016, 15:30   #3
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Prévost's ground sparrow

In my MS I only have a Mr. Prévost mentioned briefly, as commemorated in the alternate Swedish Common name of Prevost's ground sparrow* Melozone biarcuata PRÉVOST & DES MURS 1846, (and on that one I think there´s little doubt) hence it was described personally by Florent Prévost (1794–1870) … together with his colleauge Œillet Des Murs (of course).

Thereby and thereafter considered, interpreted as "his" ground sparrow …

The other one´s I haven´t checked ...

Björn

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*in Swedish earlier called "Prevosts marksparv" (identical meaning), but today: glasögonbusksparv (that would be "Spectacled Bush Sparrow).

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Old Monday 2nd May 2016, 16:27   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Jobling View Post
"PRÉVOST, Alphonse [...] He was the artist of the ornithological section of the voyage of La Bonite in 1841 [...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Jobling View Post
PRÉVOST, Florent [...] He worked on birds taken to France from the voyage round the world of the corvette La Bonite for nine colour plates. [...]"
A total of 10 bird plates were produced for the publication of the voyage of La Bonite, which can be seen [here]; they are signed "Prévost" without an initial (except #9 which is signed "Werner"), hence it's not really possible to say from the plates who is their author. However, Jackson appears to attribute them to both Florent and Alphonse, which is a bit problematic.

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Originally Posted by James Jobling View Post
PRÉVOST, Florent [...] Another two plates, of a Turdus and an Anthus were painted by him for Magasin de Zoologie 1836."
These are [here]; the first one is signed "Prévost", the second "A. Prévost" (presumably meaning Alphonse and not Florent for at least this one--making Jackson's attribution apparently incorrect; this is one of the plates shown on the first link in Martin's initial post).
(Note that the "Turdus" is actually a Chinese Bulbul, and the "Anthus" an Austral Negrito. )

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Old Monday 2nd May 2016, 21:29   #5
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Florent Prevost did not do the drawings for a book he authored.
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/i...e/217/mode/1up .
I think the artist is Hippolyte Louis Emile Pauquet.
His obit says: Collaborator and pupil of Isidore Geoffroy Saint-Hilaire, assistant naturalist at the Museum, author of works estimated on the natural history of birds, Florent Prévost died in Paris in February 1870. Dark and laborious pioneer science, he lived for half a century, with 2,500 francs a as assistant naturalist. It must be admitted that in our country the official science is hard for his servants, and it takes more than self-sacrifice, you have the imprudence to enter the career of science or education.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt...00z/f535.image .
Two more drawings by A. Prevost in Voyage de Abyssinia:
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/i...ge/21/mode/1up .
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Old Tuesday 3rd May 2016, 06:33   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
(Les pigeons. Vol. 2 together with Antoinette Paulette Jacqueline Knip).
As I already mentioned as well in Les pigeons from Florent Prévost he did not deliver any plate but the text. As well here and here he is mentioned as aide-natualiste and here he was titled as

Quote:
Florent Prévost, chef des travaux zoologiques au muséum d'histoire naturelle,...
He was mentioned in L'art français dans le livre d'oiseaux: éléments d'une iconographie ornithologique française from Rene Ronsil but not as an artist.

I never found him in old books as peintre or artiste.

P. S. Maybe the artist and assistant curator (aide-natualiste?? is this the correct translation Laurent?) are brothers. Louis Constant Prévost for whom the Prevost's squirrel (Callosciurus prevostii) was dedicated was no brother. See here. Notice nécrologique on Louis Constant Prévost here. So it seems to be no brother as there si written:

Quote:
Prévost n'avait en que deux enfants de son premier marriage: Constant Prévost, et une fille qui mourut à qunize ans; elle n'en laissa point de sa seconde.

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Old Tuesday 3rd May 2016, 08:01   #7
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Maybe Monsieur Hippolyte Prévost, "secrétaire-trésorier" is involved in some way?

He was one of the organizers of the French Abyssinian expedition, mentioned in the Introduction (page 2) in Voyage en Abyssinie 1839 ... 1843. Zoologie (Vol 6, 1845) by Des Murs, (Florent) Prevóst, Guichenot & Guérin-Menneville? (here)

Are any of those obscure prevostiana/prevostianus/prevostii birds described based on specimens collected during that Expedition?

Just an idea ...
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Old Tuesday 3rd May 2016, 08:34   #8
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If you look at T. rostratus one before T. prevostianus you even can read Flor. Prev. The specimen was from the Museum in Paris where Florent worked. I am convinced all bird dedications I am aware of are for Florent Prévost. What does this mean? Something with picture (picturata)?

Quote:
picta errore pro picturata
And to add one more Prévost see Isaac Bénédict Prévost with a possible non bird dedication here. Could be e.g. the father as he was a...

Quote:
A founding member of the Société des Sciences et des Arts du Département du Lot in Montauban

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Old Tuesday 3rd May 2016, 09:13   #9
l_raty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
What does this mean? Something with picture (picturata)?
"T. prevostianus, Bp. (picta errore pro picturata, Mus. Paris.) Mus. Paris. a Quoy et Gaim. ex Ins. Mariannis. Similis T. picturato sed minor; collare et maculis exiguis obsoletis; gula minime alba; rostro gracili, magis elongate."

He names "Turtur prevostianus, Bp." a bird called (presumably on a label) "picta", which he regards as an error for "picturata", at the Paris Museum.
The bird is at the Paris Museum, is from (deposited by/labelled by?) Quoy & Gaimard, and originates from the Mariana islands.
Then comes a description that says: Similar to Turtur picturatus but smaller; with the collar and the spots small and subdued; with the throat minimally white; with the bill slender, more elongated.

Note that in "ex Ins. Mariannis.", "Mariannis" is an ablative plural. This might be a mistake for, but cannot be read as meaning the Marianne island of the Seychelles.

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Old Tuesday 3rd May 2016, 10:36   #10
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Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
On Streptopelia picturata I have as well doubts. If we look here Bonaparte mentioned in the species described before Florent. Another article with the name (but different spelling) here. This makes sense to me as Florent Prévost published as well about pigeons. (Les pigeons. Vol. 2 together with Antoinette Paulette Jacqueline Knip).
It might be a good thing to find the source of what Bonaparte is referring to in the second link:
Quote:
Turtur prevostiana [...], que nous nommons ainsi parce qu'il nous semble évident que c'est cette nouvelle espèce du Muséum que ce zélé zoophile a eu en vue lorsqu'il a attribué aux îles Mariannes la Turtur picturata de Madagascar.
The dedicatee must be a Prévost who claimed somewhere that Turtur picturata occurs on the Mariana islands. Is such a claim present in the second volume of Les Pigeons?
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Old Tuesday 3rd May 2016, 11:16   #11
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Very rare the second volume. But see here where it is written:

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Columba picturata var. Seychellensis, Fl. Prevost: individus des Seychelles
Regarding the last remaining Alphonse Prévost in HBW Alive I see as well only connections to Florent if we look at the second link. The plate is not from Alphonse Prévost but from Jean Gabriel Prêtre and therefore I think (Jackson 1999) is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
I wonder if Euryceros is really for Lucien Alphonse Prévost. Here OD. At least I see see no hint to which Prévost it was dedicated. But see here. Lesson got the specimen from Florent Prévost and the plate here was from Prêtre (and not from A. Prévost)

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Old Tuesday 3rd May 2016, 12:23   #12
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Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
Very rare the second volume. But see here where it is written:
Yes, I know it is rare -- unfortunately...
This "var. Seychellensis" is what Bonaparte named T. rostratus just a couple of lines higher in his texts:
Quote:
T. rostratus, Bp. La prétendue variété des îles Séchelles, de M. Florent Prévost, dans son article sur la précédente, à laquelle elle ressemble beaucoup en effet.
Quote:
T. rostratus, Bp. (Columba picturata vаг. ex Sechelles, Flor. Prev.) Knip, Pig. II. in textu t. 242. figura nulla.
...But this would have been reported by Prévost to occur on the Seychelles, not on Mariana islands. Or did Prévost then list some of the Seychelles, among which he included Marianne island, which Bonaparte misread as Mariana islands...?
Note that the notion of a "Columba picta" by Quoy & Gaimard, from the Mariana islands, appears significantly older than Bonaparte's 1855 (mis?)reading of Prévost & Knip 1843: see [Lesson 1831]...

Incidentally, so far as I can find, Quoy & Gaimard do not seem to have ever stopped on the Seychelles... (But they did the Marianas.) Odd.

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Old Tuesday 3rd May 2016, 15:33   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
Very rare the second volume. ... .
Martin, you have it nearby, in Munich (here)
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Old Tuesday 3rd May 2016, 17:07   #14
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Turtur prevostiana type is discussed here:
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/i...e/242/mode/1up .
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Old Tuesday 3rd May 2016, 18:52   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
Martin, you have it nearby, in Munich (here)
I should have remembered

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Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
Meanwhile I contacted the Bayrische Staatsbibliothek in Munich as they have one of this rare book. They replied the following about the dedication:
And Marks last link supports the Seychelles.
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Old Tuesday 3rd May 2016, 21:12   #16
l_raty
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And Marks last link supports the Seychelles.
It does, but what this is based on is unclear.

This last link (Oustalet 1895) says a confusion occurred between l'île Marianne (Seychelles) and l'archipel des Mariannes (the Mariana archipelago), due to the similarity of the names, citing Salvadori 1893 as the author who identified the problem.
Salvadori himself cited Newton 1867, as a source establishing that "Marianne Island is one of the Seychelles"; but Newton did not discuss prevostianus at all. Salvadori attributed the confusion to Bonaparte ("as, following Bonaparte, has generally been understood"), and authoritatively made "Marianne Isl." the type locality of Bonaparte's prevostianus. Intriguingly, higher up on the same page, Salvadori also cited Columba picta from Lesson 1831, with the same modification in the locality ("Marianne Isl." instead of Des îles Mariannes ["from the Mariana Islands"]), but this time without any comment.

Although the confusion can certainly look like an appealing hypothesis, I see no hard evidence that it really occurred. It is unclear that anybody ever checked the type again. Voisin et al 2005 are silent about it, suggesting it may be either lost, or perhaps simply not treated as a type. From Oustalet 1876, the bird would have been brought from the Mariana islands by "Quoy et Guichard" [sic] in 1820: this would make it a bird from the voyage of l'Uranie and la Physicienne. As far as I understand, l'Uranie sailed out of Toulon, to Rio de Janeiro, then crossed the Atlantic, sailing to Cape Town, then Isle de France (Mauritius), Bourbon (Réunion), and from there east and into the Pacific; she never went to the Seychelles. She did, however, visit the Marianas in the Pacific, and the Zoologie of the Voyage, by Quoy & Gaimard 1824, is full of descriptions of animals from this archipelago.

How Quoy and Gaimard would have ended up in 1820 with a dove taken on an obscure islet in the Seychelles that they apparently did not go to, still seems quite mysterious to me...

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Old Wednesday 4th May 2016, 02:19   #17
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Q. & G. communicated with Belfast born Charles Telfair and described a mollusc they got from him at Mapou, Mauritius.
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/i...e/196/mode/1up .
Most likely they did stop for water or food?
Page 121 of Mercure de France: Serie moderne 1908 says Quoy disbarcked at Ile d France on his exploration journey and spoke to a friend of Cuvier, Julien Desjardins.
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Old Wednesday 4th May 2016, 06:12   #18
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They did a long stop at Mauritius -- more than two months; they had a problem with the copper lining of the hull, and needed to have it fixed. Their itinerary is laid out in English [here].
So they might indeed conceivably have obtained a Madagascar Turtle Dove there (assuming the species was present on the island back then), and the specimen might have ended up mixed with specimens that they obtained later on the Marianas. At first sight, this seems at least as likely as the Seychelles theory.
Or is there some evidence that I am overlooking?
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Old Wednesday 4th May 2016, 07:16   #19
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"Alphonse Prévost's" last remaining Helmet Bird ...

As a fellow Bird illustrator I simply could not keep my fingers away from this one …

● Helmet Vanga Euryceros prevostii LESSON 1831 (in Annales des sciences naturelles, here, also earlier in Martin's posts) a k a Helmet Bird

Martin, did you find any info on who made the Plate, in the "OD", No XII (here)?

However the second (?) one, Plate 74 (here), in Lesson's Centurie zoologique ("1830!?", presumably published later) apparently was made by the Swiss artist Jean Gabriel Prêtre (1768–1849). Those illustrations do look similar, even if the 1831 drawing is a bit rougher, a bit more sketch-like, in style, but they could possibly have been made by the same person.

However, the following text does tell us:
Quote:
La seule espèce connue de ce genre est parvenue tout récemment de Madagascar dans une collection adressée à M. Florent Prévost. Le rare et bel individu figuré avait été tué à Tintingue sur la côte.
This far I´ve seen nothing pointing in favour of (Lucien) Alphonse Prévost being the one commemorated in this bird.

Anyone "out there", don´t hesitate to prove me (and Martin ) wrong!

Björn

PS. If the French ornithologist Florent Prévost (1794–1870) ever was an artist or not I do not know (but even if so, not in any major form).

PPS. To me it looks like Alphonse Prévost will be left without any birds at all. Being a colleague, a fellow illustrator I almost regret this. What a pity. He was gifted enough (far better than I am) to deserve at least a little something …
---

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Old Wednesday 4th May 2016, 07:30   #20
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Martin, did you find any info on who made the Plate, in the "OD", No XII (here)?
It's written on the plate. "Lesson Del." = Lesson delineavit = Lesson sketched [it].
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Old Wednesday 4th May 2016, 07:33   #21
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It's written on the plate. "Lesson Del." = Lesson delineavit = Lesson sketched [it].
Even less talking in favour of Alphonse ...

Thanks, Laurent!
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Old Wednesday 4th May 2016, 09:02   #22
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I agree that it is a pity to kill Alphonse dedications, but that's life. And of course I would like to know if he was really born 1799 (as mentioned earlier in one of my links) and where. Same for his death which is even more a mystery to me. I could find only his marriage here p. 47.

Note: Lessons wife Clémence Marie Lesson née Dumont de Sainte-Croix (1796–1834) was as well an artist in natural history. At least Lessons hummingbird books contain a couple of plates from Mme Lesson.

I have one additional point to add. Why should be Euryceros prevostii and Amblycercus prevostii (both in the same book Centurie zoologique) for two different people if both descriptions mention Florent and no Alphonse at all?

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Old Wednesday 4th May 2016, 15:02   #23
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They did a long stop at Mauritius. Julien Desjardines did collect in the Seychelles, molluscs, fish and butterflies but most were later in the 1830's?? The Liverpool Museum has specimens of the dove from Marianne and Cousine islands in the Seychelles.
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Old Friday 6th May 2016, 14:22   #24
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According to the Bayrische Staatsbibliothek in Munich: Pl. no. 35 shows Colombe Peinte (C. Picturata, Temm.) in the text to the plate Prévost mentioned l'îles Mariannes. I hope this is enough to disprove the concerns.
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Old Friday 6th May 2016, 15:30   #25
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l'île Marianne or les îles Mariannes?
("l'îles Mariannes" makes no sense, the article is singular but the name is plural. The Seychelles island should be in the singular; if in the plural, it's the Pacific ocean archipelago that is meant.)

But, whichever, if Florent Prévost mentioned the name in Les Pigeons, this certainly supports the bird being named after him.
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