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Birdsong Apps Disrespectful to Birds (1 Viewer)

p.s. New avi? Bring back the green bins :eek!:

C ;)[/QUOTE]

heehe...big soda guy is just too funny to take down. I have to leave him up for just a little longer. :)
 
fugl said:
What you say applies to the field study of just about any aspect of bird behavior and is therefore an argument against avian field studies in general. Or am I missing some nuance in your position? The approach here would be the same as in any other field research project: conduct a limited study or 2, drawing provisional conclusions from the results; confirm or disconfirm by further studies (or not, if the interest isn't there); and so on and so on.
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You're just being obtuse now. The argument is about using tape lures on a world wide basis ( there have been indicators to this on previous posts ) not just in your back yard. My point was that if you perform a field study to determine the harm, or lack of it, on birds then you have to encompass the areas in which tape lures, and possible harm or otherwise, occur. To perform a 'limited study or 2' would involve what? A 'limited' study on a single species on one continent and the same on another? I, in my professional life, have seen far too many 'limited' studies shot down before the ink was dry.

Chris

One last thing. If you want peer reviewed proof of the last statement I'll gladly provide it. I just hope you either read, or are willing to learn Japanese. I'm not doing all the work. ;)

C
 
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So, I guess those of you who rail against the use of recorded calls, are also against even, say, using the human voice to whistle or cluck or coo or any vocalization, any sound at all? That would seem to be the extreme point to which you all are wedded.

A judicious and occasional use of recordings would not seem to be harmful - birds hear all kinds of sounds naturally, from other species and their own, all day long (some at night, too). I'm not advocating 24-hour round-the-clock blasting at 140 decibels, so don't characterize my statements that way.
 
OsageArcher said:
So, I guess those of you who rail against the use of recorded calls, are also against even, say, using the human voice to whistle or cluck or coo or any vocalization, any sound at all? That would seem to be the extreme point to which you all are wedded.

A judicious and occasional use of recordings would not seem to be harmful - birds hear all kinds of sounds naturally, from other species and their own, all day long (some at night, too). I'm not advocating 24-hour round-the-clock blasting at 140 decibels, so don't characterize my statements that way.
Click to expand...

well, I don't think I was 'railing' against this practice. I just stated that I don't feel comfortable personally with doing this. No, I wouldn't use my own vocalizations either.

I wouldn't want to add non-natural sounds such as recordings or human vocalizations into the natural enviroment that I'm observing just to get a better glimpse. I feel it wastes the bird's time, may cause stress, unnecessary distraction, etc. and I'd rather put the birds first. Also, as someone else pointed out earlier through an example, there could be unintended consequences. Should we bring birds out from shelter into the open just to get a better look? If they are not out where we can see them closely or in the open there may be a reason for that. The bottom line is that they're busy doing something else. I'd rather not disrupt whatever it is they are doing...esp. during breeding season. I'd rather be patient and hope I can get a view observing them doing what they normally do. If biologists need to use the recordings, etc. as a tool to aid in their research then that's quite a different thing. As I stated in my previous post, I feel we distract and intrude on birds' lives enough (mostly in negative ways), so why not just leave them alone and be a respectful, silent observer.
 
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OsageArcher said:
So, I guess those of you who rail against the use of recorded calls, are also against even, say, using the human voice to whistle or cluck or coo or any vocalization, any sound at all? That would seem to be the extreme point to which you all are wedded.

A judicious and occasional use of recordings would not seem to be harmful - birds hear all kinds of sounds naturally, from other species and their own, all day long (some at night, too). I'm not advocating 24-hour round-the-clock blasting at 140 decibels, so don't characterize my statements that way.
Click to expand...

Well, I wouldn't say it's that extreme! Going birding and using eyes and ears as opposed to your mouth!! I do wonder where this hobby is heading at times
 
OsageArcher said:
So, I guess those of you who rail against the use of recorded calls, are also against even, say, using the human voice to whistle or cluck or coo or any vocalization, any sound at all? That would seem to be the extreme point to which you all are wedded.

A judicious and occasional use of recordings would not seem to be harmful - birds hear all kinds of sounds naturally, from other species and their own, all day long (some at night, too). I'm not advocating 24-hour round-the-clock blasting at 140 decibels, so don't characterize my statements that way.
Click to expand...

I have said that there are circumstances when tape luring is, probably, not harmful. The problem is in the concept that it causes no harm at all. 'Judicious and occasional' use is subjective though. Your concept of what is so may differ considerably from those that may have birded that area before you and those that may come after. This point alone, I hope you'll agree, is almost always, an unknown so isn't it better to ere on the side of caution and use old fashioned field craft and patience?

Chris
 
chris butterworth said:
This point alone, I hope you'll agree, is almost always, an unknown so isn't it better to ere on the side of caution and use old fashioned field craft and patience?

Chris
Click to expand...

What, are you daft? We've got 150 birds to see today, we don't have time for that...

|^|

[I swear, although it was not expressed thus, this is a pretty good summary of the attitude displayed on the first (and last) professionally-lead tour I went on.]
 
Peter C. said:
What, are you daft? We've got 150 birds to see today, we don't have time for that...

|^|

[I swear, although it was not expressed thus, this is a pretty good summary of the attitude displayed on the first (and last) professionally-lead tour I went on.]
Click to expand...

And people think it's just misanthropy on my part when I wander off into the obscure distance on my own. ;)

Chris

Oh! In answer to your question. I get involved in stuff like this, don't I? 'Nuff sed.

C
 
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A related thread, "Playing bird songs recordings in the field disrupts mating pattern of birds", was just posted by locustella with an article about this very subject. Check it out.
 
chris butterworth said:
I don't understand how you can make statements such as 'just a form of words' and 'seat of the pants' and expect to get away with it. I asked a perfectly acceptable question. Show me the criteria you use and the results. You can't go around demanding people post proof in the form of verified literature and not expect them to demand the same from you. So, I ask again. Show us the proof of your former statements.
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This doesn't make any sense at all. I'm not asserting anything, I'm just describing what I do. The question of "proof" simply doesn't arise. And of course I want more evidence that tape luring is harmful to birds than just your gut feeling (or whatever it is that makes you so damn sure about everything).

Anyway that's it for me, on this thread at least. I'll now have a look at the new one and see what if any light it has to shed on things. See you there?

Edit:
Just back from from the new thread. Nothing of interest, I'm afraid, just a link to a not-up-to-much newspaper article.
 
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Humans have used sounds to attract animals for literally thousands of years. Regardless of anyone getting upset about it, the practice will undoubtedly continue for thousands more.

For me, I enjoy making sounds to imitate and sometimes attract animals - I do a great Barred Owl, my Coquí is indistinguishable from the real thing, and I often have duets with Mockingbirds although they put me to shame.
 
chris butterworth said:
You're just being obtuse now. The argument is about using tape lures on a world wide basis ( there have been indicators to this on previous posts ) not just in your back yard. My point was that if you perform a field study to determine the harm, or lack of it, on birds then you have to encompass the areas in which tape lures, and possible harm or otherwise, occur. To perform a 'limited study or 2' would involve what? A 'limited' study on a single species on one continent and the same on another? I, in my professional life, have seen far too many 'limited' studies shot down before the ink was dry.

Chris

One last thing. If you want peer reviewed proof of the last statement I'll gladly provide it. I just hope you either read, or are willing to learn Japanese. I'm not doing all the work. ;)

C
Click to expand...

My God, your missives are coming so thick and fast I can't keep up with them. I won't bother with this one, however. (But see my previous post for a partial rebuttal).
 
re post 51: Maybe a good time to cease such primitive antics? After all, we're not cavemen anymore. For a start there are a lot more of us encroaching on fewer birds now, and as the thread title suggests, we are armed with louder, more accurate, more prolonged equipment now as well
 
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peter.jones said:
re post 51: Maybe a good time to cease such primitive antics? After all, we're not cavemen anymore. For a start there are a lot more of us encroaching on fewer birds now, and as the thread title suggests, we are armed with louder, more accurate, more prolonged equipment now as well
Click to expand...

Please feel free to stop. I don't think the rest of the human race will follow suit, though.
 
Don't know the science on how disruptive it is for the bird, do know it's annoying to approach a chirring nightjar with your ears, perhaps from hundreds of yards, only to find some wally playing a tape. If that's you, please stop.
 
seaspirit said:
The problem in popular birding places is not MY responsible (! not this is important!) use of bird calls to lure an individual closer (for watching or photographing doesn't matter in then end), its the summation of other responsible or irresponsible folks that did the very same thing before me and will do it after I have moved on. None of those, including myself, know how frequently the birds has already been subjected to the sound decoy during the day/week, month
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Good point. If the amount of playback used in an area was monitored and controlled (I'm not suggesting that's possible) then it would be ok to use it. But we rely on luck to guess whether we're contributing to something harmful.
 
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