Thinking about upgrading from Swarovski EL 8.5x42 to Zeiss 8x42 SF (1 Viewer)

My EL is of 2008 vintage and there is nothing wrong with it other than due to my myopia, it is barely sufficient in terms of over-drive past infinitity, if I want to use it without eyeglasses. I have -5.50 diopters and I am at the very end of the dial.

Other than that, I think I prefer 8x42 over 8.5x42 but it's really the same thing.

I tried Zeiss and the optical quality did not seem any worse. I am not a pro, just a casual user. But it did have a very generous over drive past infinity, way better than either Swaro or Leica. Leica is my favorite when it comes to optics but they are completely inadequate when it comes to over drive past infinity, they are only at -4. Meaning I cannot use the hardware without eyeglasses or contact lenses. The recently released Leica Noctivid has the same silly -4D.

what is the latest incarnation of the Zeiss Victory 8x42 line, are they planning any new releases? Scanning used Ebay auctions, they seem to go for a hair cheaper than Swaro EL.

FWIW, I was also impressed with Nikon with overdrive but Victory seems like a safer choice.

Victory SF is the latest top-line Victory from Zeiss and was upgraded a bit last year with improvements to the focus and with black armour instead of grey. The field of view of SF is phenomenal and the handling balance is unique. If you grip the optical tube beneath the bridge with three fingers you will find that your first finger falls naturally on the focus wheel.

In view of the improvements made to SF last year it seems unlikely Zeiss will be replaceing SF any time soon.

Lee

That is helpful. Thank you.

I assume your El is the older version with the black coating on the hinge side of the barrels.
The Swarovision and Field Pro 42 mm ELs are a completely different optical design with -ve instead of +ve. focussing elements, field flatteners etc.
For the current 8,5x42 EL Swarovski quote a focus overtravel of 6 dioptres and dioptre compensation of +/-5, so if your eyes are similar they would potentially give you up to 11 dioptres of overtravel.
See also this thread: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=274393&highlight=focus+overtravel

John

etc said:

My EL is of 2008 vintage and there is nothing wrong with it other than due to my myopia, it is barely sufficient in terms of over-drive past infinitity, if I want to use it without eyeglasses. I have -5.50 diopters and I am at the very end of the dial.

Other than that, I think I prefer 8x42 over 8.5x42 but it's really the same thing.

I tried Zeiss and the optical quality did not seem any worse. I am not a pro, just a casual user. But it did have a very generous over drive past infinity, way better than either Swaro or Leica. Leica is my favorite when it comes to optics but they are completely inadequate when it comes to over drive past infinity, they are only at -4. Meaning I cannot use the hardware without eyeglasses or contact lenses. The recently released Leica Noctivid has the same silly -4D.

what is the latest incarnation of the Zeiss Victory 8x42 line, are they planning any new releases? Scanning used Ebay auctions, they seem to go for a hair cheaper than Swaro EL.

FWIW, I was also impressed with Nikon with overdrive but Victory seems like a safer choice.

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Just an observation.
I used to have Myopia - though it was far worse than yours! I had a -10 for my right eye and still needed the full -3 adjustment that my ELs gave. My left eye was better at -6 or so. My Myopia was aggravated by cataracts which have now been corrected and now both eyes are near perfect for distance focus. Nowadays I use no correction between the eyepieces of my Swaros (and other bins) - however I do find them much more difficult to use than I ever did with dodgy eyes and glasses!
In the past I put 3mm thick O rings around the eyepiece extensions which gave just the right distance for comfortable viewing. Now I find it very difficult to get a consistent eye relief and really miss my glasses and (WAY) out of focus eyes when I am using Binoculars!
Counter-intuitively I find bins easier to use with glasses than without them! Though for everything else my eyes are much better (actually excellent) these days.

Tringa45 said:

I assume your El is the older version with the black coating on the hinge side of the barrels.
The Swarovision and Field Pro 42 mm ELs are a completely different optical design with -ve instead of +ve. focussing elements, field flatteners etc.
For the current 8,5x42 EL Swarovski quote a focus overtravel of 6 dioptres and dioptre compensation of +/-5, so if your eyes are similar they would potentially give you up to 11 dioptres of overtravel.
See also this thread: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=274393&highlight=focus+overtravel

John

Click to expand...

Yeah, I found these specs. EL 8.5x42 have 6 diopters at infinity which is just barely enough. Too bad 10x50 EL have only 5. The specs are on the main swaro web sight.

I don't have any difference between the two barrels, they set to 0 so my total overdrive past infinity is still 6 diopters.

johnf3f said:

Just an observation.
I used to have Myopia - though it was far worse than yours! I had a -10 for my right eye and still needed the full -3 adjustment that my ELs gave. My left eye was better at -6 or so. My Myopia was aggravated by cataracts which have now been corrected and now both eyes are near perfect for distance focus. Nowadays I use no correction between the eyepieces of my Swaros (and other bins) - however I do find them much more difficult to use than I ever did with dodgy eyes and glasses!
In the past I put 3mm thick O rings around the eyepiece extensions which gave just the right distance for comfortable viewing. Now I find it very difficult to get a consistent eye relief and really miss my glasses and (WAY) out of focus eyes when I am using Binoculars!
Counter-intuitively I find bins easier to use with glasses than without them! Though for everything else my eyes are much better (actually excellent) these days.

Click to expand...

I have -5.5 diopers but the really good thing is, if you can call it that, the value is the same for both eyes, so my diopter setting is at 0 - identical for both barrels of EL.

I just turn the wheel all the way to its limit when viewing something distant and that's -6D which accommodates me.

10x56 SLC has -8D which is even better. I know Zeiss has something greater than -6D so does Nikon.

Leica is my favorite optically but in the Nth revision of Trinovid, the latest-greatest still has only -4D which does not suit me at all so Swaro it is but it's really my second choice.



Did you know you can upgrade the extending eye piece of the ELs? I found out the stock ones did not extend far enough to get proper eye relief and the set from SLC works great. If that's what you mean.

etc said:

Yeah, I found these specs. EL 8.5x42 have 6 diopters at infinity which is just barely enough. Too bad 10x50 EL have only 5. The specs are on the main swaro web sight.

I don't have any difference between the two barrels, they set to 0 so my total overdrive past infinity is still 6 diopters.

Click to expand...

My interpretation of Swarovski's specifications (and also Kimmo Absetz') is that the current 8,5x42 EL will allow for 6 dioptres overtravel on the left barrel and an additional 5 dioptres of compensation on the right barrel before the focussing lens is at the (forward) end of its travel.
If your eyes are the same, this would allow you 11 dioptres of overtravel. The variations of a design with higher magnifications generally provide more infinity overtravel and on my 10x42 EL SV I actually measured 18 dioptres (Swaro specs. 8+5)!
But why all the speculation? If you're spending that amount of money, you have to try for yourself.

John

PS:- The diopter compensation on my 10x42 SV is calibrated +/-5 but actually turns to approximately +/-9. I had suspected that these were arbitrary figures on the scale, so after focussing on an object I placed a 6 dioptre hand loupe behind the right eyepiece and refocussed with the dioptre compensation. Et voilà -6.

Tringa45 said:

My interpretation of Swarovski's specifications (and also Kimmo Absetz') is that the current 8,5x42 EL will allow for 6 dioptres overtravel on the left barrel and an additional 5 dioptres of compensation on the right barrel before the focussing lens is at the (forward) end of its travel.
If your eyes are the same, this would allow you 11 dioptres of overtravel. .

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As far as I understand, no that is not how it works. The diopter wheel adjusts diopters in just one barrel, not both. I haven't adjusted Swarovski ever but that is how it is in Leica and in my understanding in all binoculars. Diopter setting wheel sets the difference between two barrels. For example, if you have -4D in one eye and -5D in another eye, you need to set the diopter compensation to -1, then lock it. Because -1D is the difference that is needed between 2 barrels. The 5D diopter setting means the difference between barrels can be as great as 5D, it does not get added to the -6D of diopters at infinity. You still have only -6D at infinity.

Because my myopia is identical, my diopters are set to zero.

For example with Leica, their diopters at infinity overdrive is -4D. Under the -5.5 to -6D that I need. I could set the diopters to -2, overdrive all the way to the limit and perhaps my right eye would be there but the left one wouldn't, because it would be weaker than the right one by the value of 2D that you just set.

So if your overdrive past infinity is -5D and your myopia is -6D, you cannot use the diopter compensation wheel to gain that additional 1D that is missing.

Another reason why this wouldn't work anyway, if you suddenly decided to use the optic with either contacts or eyeglasses, the diopter setting would then be off. You do not want to change the diopter setting every time you switch between corrective eyewear and using the device without such. It just doesn't make sense.

If you have really poor eyesight, mild or no astigmatism and don't want to use corrective eyeglasses, your best best is Zeiss, Nikon, some Swarovski models like 10x56SLC and marginally, Swarovski EL 8.5x42. What you do not want is Leica, as optically magnificent as they are, they are only -4D at infinity. Even the latest-greatest Noctivid is still -4D, in the last 30 years they refused to revise it and it's a deal breaker for me.

I have -5.5 and EL has -6D which is just barely enough. If my vision gets any worse, I will have to switch to Zeiss. which I probably will anyway. As that new 8x42 SF looks really nice. I should double check that 8x42 SF has at least 6D at infinity and not make any assumptions.

Check out this informative post:

https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2898448&postcount=29

etc said:

Check out this informative post:

https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2898448&postcount=29

Click to expand...

This caused considerable amusement as I am the author of that "informative" post, having recently re-registered after three years of absence from Birdforum.

In the light of present knowledge, I would however qualify that post, particularly in respect of the current Swarovski ELs and will try to explain.

In internal focussing binoculars the amount of focus overtravel is limited by the available forward travel of negative (diverging) focussing elements or of rearward travel of positive (converging) focussing elements. Although many newer designs tend to favour negative focussing elements, examples with positive elements are the old Swarovski ELs, the old pre-HD SLCs, Meopta Meostars and Zeiss SFs. The EL Swarovisions have negative focussing elements.

If you read again the thread I posted four years ago, particularly from post #18 onwards, you will see that I measured a total of 15,5 dioptres of focus overtravel on the 10x42 SV, so at least on this model line Swarovski specify the amount of available negative dioptre correction on the right barrel in ADDITION to the focus overtravel.

If my primitive measurements are anywhere near correct this would mean that if your left eye is myopic needing 6,5 dioptres correction, you would still have 9 dioptres of available additional negative correction on the right barrel!

These figures are almost absurdly high and Swarovski has created an egg-laying wool milk sow, as we say in Germany. Together with a close focus of 1,5 m this must have entailed some optical compromises. I'm not saying there is anything better, just that Swarovski could have done a little better if they had been a little less ambitious with some of the specifications.

John

etc said:

Did you know you can upgrade the extending eye piece of the ELs? I found out the stock ones did not extend far enough to get proper eye relief and the set from SLC works great. If that's what you mean.

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No I didn't - thank you! I will have a look into that.

Tringa45 said:

I assume your El is the older version with the black coating on the hinge side of the barrels.
The Swarovision and Field Pro 42 mm ELs are a completely different optical design with -ve instead of +ve. focussing elements, field flatteners etc.
For the current 8,5x42 EL Swarovski quote a focus overtravel of 6 dioptres and dioptre compensation of +/-5, so if your eyes are similar they would potentially give you up to 11 dioptres of overtravel.

See also this thread: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=274393&highlight=focus+overtravel

John

Click to expand...

No, no, no, it does not work that way. The diopter setting wheel between the two barrels changes the value in the *right* barrel only, relative to the left one. It does nothing to the left one.

for example if your right eye is worse than the left one by 1.5 Diopters, that is what it's for. To set that difference. So it is maintained over all settings of the focus wheel. It does not gain anything over the maximum value of diopters at infinity. I would think that one eye could gain a bit but the other one would still be not affected. Not a solution.

If your myopia is identical in both eyes, or you have perfect vision, the diopter setting should be set to 0.

See this post, in the same thread:

https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2906515&postcount=7

Focus overtravel definitely increases with magnification, that I have seen pretty consistently with sibling models of different magnification. Swarovski also specifies larger overtravel for their 10x than their 8x models (7 and 5 diopters for the EL SV 32, 8 and 6 dpt for EL SV 42, 8 and 5 for SLC 56. Only for SLC 42 do they specify the same overtravel).

I suspect there may be something going a bit amiss with the 6 dpt hand magnifier method. If the diopter adjustment ranges and overtravel really would be as large as your results indicate, extremely few birders would have trouble with insufficient adjustment range.

I have a friend who does not use glasses while viewing, and who has myopia of about 5.5 dpt in one eye. He used to own the old 8.5x42 EL, and as his accommodation lessened with age, he became unable to use the binocular because he ran out of focus travel.

Click to expand...

I am actually in the very same boat as I have -5.25 D. If my vision gets any worse, I won't be able to use the 8.5x42 EL. Right I turn the adjustment wheel all the way to its limit.

this is what makes SLC 10x56 attractive. they are at 8D at infinity. I will never exceed that amount. Leica is stupidly at -4D for all models. Making it unusable. Zeiss is generous but cannot find their exact values.

Seems Zeiss SF has a lower resolution than Swaro EL SV:

http://www.greatestbinoculars.com/allpages/reviews/shootouts/shootoutpremier8x42s/8x42shootout.html

2.3 Resolution: Contrast at the level of the smallest details the optics can differentiate. In practice not relevant, although a high resolution might be correlated with a high contrast at the resolution limit of the viewer´s eyes.

Nikon EDG not tested.

Resolution at open aperture:

1. Leica Ultravid, Swarovski Swarovision, Zeiss HT

For all three, resolution was 3.79 arcseconds at 8.56 m distance from the chart, and 4.06 arcseconds at 4 meters distance from the chart, surpassing the DIN ISO 1433-2 norm of 5.7 arcseconds by a good margin.

2. Swarovski Habicht, Swarovski SLC, Zeiss SF

For these two, resolution at 8.54 m distance was 4.26 arcseconds, and 4.56 arcseconds at 4m distance, surpassing the DIN ISO 1433-2 norm of 5.7 arcseconds by a good margin. The 30mm Habicht is at a disadvantage due to smaller objective size.

Resolution with objectives masked to 20mm (2.5mm exit pupil size) was 6.77 arcseconds at 8.56 meters distance and 6.44 arcseconds at 4 meters distance for all tested glasses.

Click to expand...

etc said:

Seems Zeiss SF has a lower resolution than Swaro EL SV:

http://www.greatestbinoculars.com/allpages/reviews/shootouts/shootoutpremier8x42s/8x42shootout.html

Click to expand...

These kinds of tests are notoriously difficult to perform and depend on good lighting control so each unit is tested under exactly the same conditions, and even if done well it is only a test of single examples of each model so can't really be statistically significant. When I was involved in quality assurance work we had to test a minimum of 6 examples to have a significant result. In addition I notice the SF test unit was supplied by Michaela Sulz and so the SF would have been a very early unit, possibly even pre-production because she left the company not long after the launch of SF. All of these remarks would also apply if the SF had come out on top.

Lee

I see

Tringa45 said:

My interpretation of Swarovski's specifications (and also Kimmo Absetz') is that the current 8,5x42 EL will allow for 6 dioptres overtravel on the left barrel and an additional 5 dioptres of compensation on the right barrel before the focussing lens is at the (forward) end of its travel.
If your eyes are the same, this would allow you 11 dioptres of overtravel. The variations of a design with higher magnifications generally provide more infinity overtravel and on my 10x42 EL SV I actually measured 18 dioptres (Swaro specs. 8+5)!
But why all the speculation? If you're spending that amount of money, you have to try for yourself.

John

PS:- The diopter compensation on my 10x42 SV is calibrated +/-5 but actually turns to approximately +/-9. I had suspected that these were arbitrary figures on the scale, so after focussing on an object I placed a 6 dioptre hand loupe behind the right eyepiece and refocussed with the dioptre compensation. Et voilà -6.

Click to expand...

How do you adjust the left barrel with the diopter wheel?

The diopter wheel adjusts just the *right* barrel if there is a difference in prescription between the two barrels.

So you can take the focus wheel all the way to the limit and get -6D and then use the diopter knob to gain even more diopters in the right eye. So you can end up with -10D in the right barrel but the left barrel will still be at only -6D and with 4 diopter difference, the device will be unusable.

The diopter focus adjusts the difference between barrels, not adds anything

You've just turned your binoculars into a telescope or a monocular. A useless device at that point. Why not just get a mono-barrel device then?

If the diopter value at infinity is -6, there is nothing you can do with the diopter adjusment to improve it since that wheel adjusts the difference *between* the barrels, not focus past infinity overdrive.